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Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by ajross on Monday August 23, 2021 @11:48AM (#28277671)
Alternatively: the unvaccinated are simply mistaken, and represent people's cousins and friends and children and grandparents, and their suffering and death would represent real loss and tragedy even to people who did everything right and got their shots.

The desire to see this pandemic solely in terms of an individual moral play (on all sides of the debate!) is really strong on this website, and I think it's very unhelpful.

We're all in this together. I got my shots. All my family members of age are vaccinated. All our friends and regular acquaintances are vaccinated.

I still wear my mask where I have to be near people in public, because every little bit helps. My risk is not zero, and if I get sick so might someone else who isn't as protected. I still avoid restaurants. I still work at home. I still limit travel.

We can stop this when the pandemic is controlled. Until then, it remains all of our collective responsibility. And I for one am willing to bear that.

Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by zarzavat on Monday August 23, 2021 @12:10PM (#28278070)
Your compassion is noble but the reality is that few share it. Very few vaccinated people are willing to accept restrictions on their liberty to help protect people who are unvaccinated by choice.

Besides, the virus is not standing still. It is responding to selective pressure by becoming ever more transmissible. The more we try to control the virus by social distancing, the more the virus responds by becoming easier to transmit. We cannot control this pandemic long term via social distancing, even with perfect compliance.

Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by ajross on Monday August 23, 2021 @12:17PM (#28278171)
> The more we try to control the virus by social distancing, the more the virus responds by becoming easier to transmit.

That is a mischaracterization. I mean, it's true, but only in a specious sense that all organisms respond to changes in their environment (including vaccination techniques!). It's absolutely not an argument that pandemic mitigation strategies are universally doomed to failure!

> We cannot control this pandemic long term via social distancing

Again, this is wrong. And in fact it worked to control covid (not perfectly, but well, well under what you'd expect from the early exponential curves in places like Milan and New York) for almost a year before vaccines showed up.

You're making another common mistake here, and imagining that all arguments are about absolutes. In your mind, mask wearing either Works Perfectly or Must Be Abandoned.

In the real world, you wear masks when the pandemic is at a high infection rate and growing, (like now) because marginal improvements are important ("every little bit helps"), and not as much when it's low and shrinking (as it was in June, when I even went to a few restaurants unmasked!).

Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by zarzavat on Monday August 23, 2021 @06:38PM (#28282931)
Pandemic controls are already doomed to failure in the case of COVID. If you look at countries where they have had very strict and successful pandemic controls, such as Vietnam, Australia and New Zealand, they are finding it impossible to contain the delta variant. It has several attributes that make control difficult.

Would the delta variant have arisen were it not for social distancing? Perhaps, that's unknowable. But we certainly created a lot of selective pressure for it to exist.

That's not to say that social distancing was bad or wrong. It was our only choice at the time. But in a future where social distancing is much less effective and where compliance by vaccinated people will be low, the utility of these interventions is becoming ever smaller. You can of course do whatever you want individually according to your conscience.

Where do we go from here? The world needs to increase vaccine production to billions per month, and decrease response times to new variants so that if there is a new vaccine-resistant variant we can vaccinate the world again quickly.

Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by ajross on Monday August 23, 2021 @06:57PM (#28283112)
No. No, no, none of that is correct. Stop saying things that are untrue simply because they feel like they should confirm your priors. Delta outbreaks in many places have peaked and subsided well short of saturation. Look at India, where it was first detected. They peaked in May and are now at about 9% of peak infection rate.

In fact objectively India's net response to Delta, both in width of infection wave and peak outbreak rate, has been better that the US's, despite near zero net vaccination.

And why is the US so bad at this? Largely because of PEOPLE LIKE YOU who insist on crazy pseudoscience theories like "Masks don't work" or "treat it with dewormer" or (sigh) "Pandemic controls are already doomed to failure" instead of just doing the right thing. Stop it. Stop trying to be smarter than everyone. Just get in line and do the right thing.

Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by dcolkitt on Monday August 23, 2021 @11:27PM (#28284780)
There's no way to get the R0 of Delta below 1.0. Period. Even the strictest lockdown regiments have had transmission far above 1.0. The only reason Delta ever subsides (like in India) is when it burns through enough of the population to lose fresh targets.

The science is settled. Virtually everyone is going to get Delta either sooner or later. There's nothing that can be done to change that fact. All we can do is slow the spread from a few weeks of wildfire to a few months of wildfire.

Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by ajross on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @12:26AM (#28285102)
> There's no way to get the R0 of Delta below 1.0

Good grief, stop. Stop using jargon you don't understand. Stop making medical pronouncements that are clearly wrong. STOP. That statement, if true, would mean that the entire population would be trapped in a cycle of reinfection after reinfection, coming faster and faster, forever. It is clearly not true. No disease works like that. You are using words you don't understand to describe a subject you don't understand but have strong feelings about.

> The science is settled.

Then maybe you could cite some?

Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by dom96 on Monday August 23, 2021 @02:07PM (#28279734)
> Your compassion is noble but the reality is that few share it. Very few vaccinated people are willing to accept restrictions on their liberty to help protect people who are unvaccinated by choice.

It's not about protecting those that are unvaccinated by choice. It's also about protecting those that cannot get vaccines for whatever reason and also to stop breakthrough infections.

Also the majority of UK residents at least are still wearing masks[1] so I think at least that's some evidence that people do share this compassion.

1 - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/20/uk-still-weari...

Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by h3cate on Monday August 23, 2021 @04:19PM (#28281376)
Do you think that there should be restrictions on society to protect people that are unvaccinated by choice?
Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by rajin444 on Monday August 23, 2021 @03:48PM (#28281019)
> We're all in this together

No, we aren't. Obesity is an epidemic. Nearly all of those people made a decision to make themselves more likely to contract covid, more likely to exhibit symptoms longer (thus spread it), and more likely to occupy critical healthcare infrastructure - as well as more likely to die from covid.

There has been almost 0 acknowledgement of this as well as 0 promises to fix this issue. If you're still obese (or not calling for mandatory weight loss) and upset others aren't getting a vaccine you're not fairly applying "every little bit helps".

You're picking and choosing which issues we should bear "collective responsibility" for. It's some kind of irony we're passing out krispy kremes when you get your vaccination.

Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by h3cate on Monday August 23, 2021 @04:21PM (#28281398)
This is the most annoying point. One of the biggest factors in whether you will end up in hospital is obesity and smoking and yet for some reason this is never addressed.
Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by ajross on Monday August 23, 2021 @08:17PM (#28283716)
It literally was addressed directly, you just didn't understand the point. So I'll repeat: the people harmed by covid cases are not only the ones infected. To be blunt: I have smoking and/or fat family members and friends. You probably do too. Could they have worked harder on their weight or quit long ago? Probably. It would still be horrifying to see them on a ventilator.

Pandemics aren't about personal choice. Period. Pandemics aren't about personal choice. People who do all the right things still suffer. So... how about we try to minimize that instead of making excuses and placing blame?

Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by wonderwonder on Monday August 23, 2021 @01:51PM (#28279496)
Unfortunately we are not all in this together. One group is vaccinated and has done their part to protect themselves and others including those that cannot be vaccinated due to age limitations. There is another group that refuses vaccination, sees it as an impediment to their freedom and if they don't think Covid is a hoax then are quite willing to sacrifice others. There is no common ground between these groups and the vaccinated group very much sees the second group as needlessly prolonging this pandemic and engaging in a lifestyle choice that is very much a risk to their children.
Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by defgeneric on Monday August 23, 2021 @12:46PM (#28278607)
I refuse to massively change my lifestyle and limit my freedom because some people have incorrect beliefs.

Post-vaccine, we are not all in this together.

Re:The Coronavirus Is Here Forever by lovich on Monday August 23, 2021 @12:58PM (#28278781)
> We're all in this together

I used to think this too, but the “Covid is a hoax” crowd have made it very clear that we are not