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Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by treis on Sunday August 22, 2021 @06:19PM (#28270225)
I think ebike is a misnomer. These things are really e-(motor)cycles. This confusion is making it really hard for me to search for what I need. All I want is an assist to take the edge off of hills. Don't need to cruise at 30mph for an hour.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by PragmaticPulp on Sunday August 22, 2021 @09:35PM (#28271501)
This distinction is becoming a big problem in our local mountain biking community.

Most of us really wouldn’t mind if people who needed a little extra help (older people, injured people, people new to the sport) were riding bikes that provided a small assist to help out with the hills. It’s actually great to see older people being able to ride again with some help from a motor, for example.

But instead, we’re seeing a lot of e-bike builders abusing the concept to hack or build bikes that are basically electric motorcycles. It gets old fast when your local mountain bike trail is now crowded with kids motoring up the mountain on their modified e-bikes without even pretending to pedal. It’s even worse when they end up deep into trails they’re not qualified to ride with a dead battery and no natural ability to pedal back out.

The end result has been a blanket ban on e-bikes on most trails and a lot of animosity toward e-bikes. I wish there was a better compromise, but after watching all of the dumb outcomes play out on my local trails from a small handful of people abusing the concept, I understand why it had come to this.

Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by dstroot on Sunday August 22, 2021 @09:48PM (#28271577)
58 year old MTB’er here. I was looking forward to getting an eMTB in a few years to keep riding. Feels like the window is closing as many place around me ban eBikes for the same reasons you describe. It’s going to be pretty disappointing if I can only ride at the “eBike Park” full of kids on Sur Rons (basically an electric dirt bike). Oh well, I can still ride for now.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by aaronblohowiak on Sunday August 22, 2021 @09:59PM (#28271619)
if you get your doctor to right you a note, it can be an assistive device which is not covered by a ban. i am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, but i am middle-aged.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by shkkmo on Sunday August 22, 2021 @11:37PM (#28272110)
I think if this is true it highly depends on who owns and mamages the land.

I am pretty sure this is not currently true on almost all US National Forest land. Anything with a motor qualifies as for motor vehicle there and you will only be allowed on trails marked for motorized use on the MVUM maps. This includes mobility devices

Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by swader999 on Sunday August 22, 2021 @09:42PM (#28271542)
Do bans work? I could probably build a bike that you really couldn't tell unless you took it apart.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by PragmaticPulp on Sunday August 22, 2021 @09:54PM (#28271601)
Partially. My local trail bans e-bikes and off-leash dogs, but I still run into both on a regular basis.

Occasionally there will be someone waiting at the trailhead writing tickets to people who come off the trail with an e-bike or an off-leash dog. This seems to work as word spreads through Facebook groups and people stay away. Also generates some decent revenue when someone can write tickets for an hour and hand out a couple thousand dollars in fines for blatant violations (they stand right next to the very clear signage at the trailhead)

Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by ip26 on Sunday August 22, 2021 @11:10PM (#28271953)
If it's indistinguishable from a regular bike, it's probably not one of the 1500kW bikes their organization had a problem with.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by eMPee584 on Monday August 23, 2021 @03:22AM (#28273096)
1500kW bike, that's a beast.. with wings and a pocket fusion engine, I presume .. xD
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by dd36 on Monday August 23, 2021 @07:32AM (#28274355)
It powers the neighborhood.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by ZeroGravitas on Sunday August 22, 2021 @06:43PM (#28270432)
EPAC or Pedelec is a term used for bikes that meet the EU regulations, assist should cut off beyond 25kph (15.5mph) and you only get power when you cycle. I think there's a motor wattage maximum too so that might help your search.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by kylegordon on Sunday August 22, 2021 @06:56PM (#28270525)
yup, and 250W continuous

And the great bit is that if you are ignorant of these laws and get caught on an electric bike doing higher speeds then you get a penalty as if you are riding a motorbike without insurance or a license - aka penalty points on your regular driving license, plus all the other court shenanigans.

Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by treis on Sunday August 22, 2021 @06:50PM (#28270479)
Those seem to be the magic words to find what I'm looking for, thanks!
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by dzhiurgis on Sunday August 22, 2021 @07:21PM (#28270682)
I'm all in for sensible regulation, but don't structure in a way that it's impossible to buy mid-speed ebike because no one knows how to certify or suddenly it costs 4x more for no apparent reason.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by aaronblohowiak on Sunday August 22, 2021 @10:01PM (#28271627)
We call it a class 1 ebike and they are easy to buy in USA.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by bootlooped on Sunday August 22, 2021 @06:34PM (#28270365)
I think the phrase e-bike generally refers to a bicycle, with operable pedals, that also has an electric motor to assist when peddling, and possibly a throttle.

When I think electric motorcycle, I think of something that does not have pedals at all.

Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by analog31 on Sunday August 22, 2021 @10:29PM (#28271762)
One issue is that the pedals could be practically cosmetic, if the power added by the motor is such that pedaling is unnecessary. This was true with some early mopeds too -- the pedals were pretty much good for starting the motor and nothing else. I'm seeing more of this as e-bikes evolve towards smaller diameter, wider tires and heavier frames.

The US "class" system seems useful, inasmuch as it more or less specifies the capability of the bike with and without pedaling. I'm all for adding a new transportation / recreation option, and have adopted a wait-and-see attitude for how the technology and its use will evolve. So far, e-bikes have not affected my use of a conventional bike, except for people asking me when I'm going to get an e-bike.

Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by mastax on Monday August 23, 2021 @09:41AM (#28275538)
Huh, I've never seen a moped that you could pedal like a bike even in a photo. Apparently the "ped" is from "pedal," not "pedestrian." I wonder if eBikes will follow the same path? I don't think they will, a gas motor is already disruptive enough that you may as well become a motorcycle.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by analog31 on Monday August 23, 2021 @03:10PM (#28280560)
I wonder if electric starters killed the pedals. I grew up in an area that was pretty heavily car-centric, so we didn't see a lot of alternatives. The Schwinn store got the Solex Horse, which had pedals, but they were really only useful for starting as there was one gear with a low ratio.

The only next thing we saw was the Honda Spree, which as I recall had an electric starter and whatever qualified as an "automatic transmission," and I think that class of scooter is still more or less the standard today. It seemed like a big step forward in terms of ease of use.

Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by throwaway_se099 on Monday August 23, 2021 @02:21PM (#28279900)
I've never seen a moped that you could pedal like a bike even in a photo.

As an example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puch_Maxi

Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by jbergens on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @12:13PM (#28290800)
In Sweden there are different classes depending on if the motor can drive when you are not pedaling.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by analog31 on Sunday August 22, 2021 @08:33PM (#28271116)
This could be a market problem, like trying to buy a small car these days. People are demanding bigger, faster, more range. I know several people with e-bikes, and most of them are on their second or third bike in pursuit of more speed and power, fatter tires, shocks, etc.

A used bike might fit your bill. Or the DIY route. The friction motor might be a bit iffy, but you might be able to buy an electric front or rear wheel for not too much and use the same electronics.

Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by swader999 on Sunday August 22, 2021 @09:18PM (#28271378)
Friction motors are not great in the rain. The tire tread type and width, the pressure on the tire and the material of the friction drive surface are all difficult to get right. These kinds of motors are very noisy too.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by germinalphrase on Sunday August 22, 2021 @06:24PM (#28270270)
Search for a 750 watt motor. That is the upper limit in many countries for a standard commercial ebike. Bafang and Tongsheng both produce popular motors.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by treis on Sunday August 22, 2021 @06:34PM (#28270371)
Google says those cruise at ~30mph.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by dzhiurgis on Sunday August 22, 2021 @07:23PM (#28270695)
I had guy in lycra overtake me at that speed (slight downhill). He smiled and took off.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by 1-more on Sunday August 22, 2021 @06:48PM (#28270470)
You can get really nerdy and calculate this the way triathletes/time trialists do with a tool like this[0]. I plugged in what I think my numbers are for mass and my relaxed ride CdA and on my road bike and you're on the money.

[0] http://www.aeroweenie.com/calc.html

Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by morganw on Sunday August 22, 2021 @08:44PM (#28271175)
That's really helpful. It predicts 534 Watts to get me (110kg, 0.4 CdA) to the 45kph limit for Class 3 California bikes.

The Grin Technologies motor simulator https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html predicts (the "Load Line") 837 Watts for "MTB upright", 648W for "MTB, Tuck" and 570W for "Road, Tuck".

I do find that in an upright position it takes 100-200W of human power in addition to 750W power measured at the input to the motor controller. The controller's pretty efficient, but the motor (GMAC) is only 85% max, so there's maybe 570W at the axle. The US CPSC and California laws aren't clear whether the 750W/1 horsepower limit is power in or power out, but power in is what shows on the display, so I limit it to that. Also, even a mild grade will cause the motor to approach the 70 deg C limit I chose after 1 minute. I live in the flattish Santa Clara County, but I'd definitely want a mid-drive if I lived in a hilly area. A 250 or 350W Riese & Müller Delite https://www.r-m.de/en-us/bikes/delite/ I test rode needed a lot of human power to hit the 45 kph max, but it climbed hills in Larkspur like a goat.

750W will have no problem getting a recumbent bike to 30MPH, but don't count on it for an upright.

Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by morganw on Sunday August 22, 2021 @08:48PM (#28271197)
Oh, and to see what 700W from a human looks like, an Olympic track cyclist toasts a piece of bread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4O5voOCqAQ
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by 1-more on Monday August 23, 2021 @01:25PM (#28279170)
Yep. Bradley Wiggins's 2015 velodrome hour world record was 440W (since eclipsed in distance but not power). This puts into perspective how cheap power is in the industrial age. His hour record was the equivalent power of 35 grams of gasoline. Or it's about 5 not great power tool batteries (eyeballing eBay listings). It's gonna be tough when we have a world built for nearly free energy and we don't have the free energy anymore.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by loeg on Sunday August 22, 2021 @07:46PM (#28270839)
It's plausible. Pro riders put out 400-500W to do ~30 mph, but are likely in a more aerodynamic position than most ebike riders (or drafting).
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by shiftpgdn on Sunday August 22, 2021 @09:04PM (#28271285)
Pro riders can do 30mph at around 270-300W on a flat surface as they’re typically very skinny. I need about 350-450W to do 30mph as an 88kg/1.88M male.
Re:A DIY E-bike Conversion on the Cheap by germinalphrase on Sunday August 22, 2021 @07:53PM (#28270874)
Hm. You’re right. Bad suggestion. Overkill.