EU, China, Iran, US: everyone gets to spy on their own children and forbid whatever they want.
On the flip side, though, at least Apple will have given us a canary. And that's why I don't think Apple will be asked to add these hashes: if the governments don't want their citizens to know what's being scanned server side, pushing the equivalent data to clients would tip their hand. They might just write Apple off as a loss and rely on Google, Facebook, etc.
It would be trivial to have the same payload on each device, and extract different answers using the matching server side db which varies by country.
Perhaps not trivial, but just short.
I honestly don't think Apple wants to deal with any of that crap and that they would rather silently can the system and do exactly what everybody else does than place themselves in the line of fire when their own unique trademark system is being abused.
Suffice to say, unless you provide proof, I am reasonably confident there’s no way to verify the hash db doesn’t contain extra hashes other than the CSAM hashes provided by the US government. But I’ve been wrong many times before.
If what you mean by blinded is that you don't know what the source image is for the hash, that's true. Otherwise Apple would just be putting a database of child porn on everyone's phones. You gotta find some kind of balance here.
What do you mean you can't verify it doesn't contain extra hashes? Meaning that Apple will say here are the hashes in your phone, but secretly will have extra hashes they're not telling you about? Not only is this the kind of thing that security researchers will quickly find, you're assuming a very sinister set of features from Apple that they'll only tell you half the story. If that were the case, then why offer the hashes at all? It's an extremely cynical take.
The reality is all of the complaints about this system went from this specific implementation, and then as details get revealed, it's now all about the future hypothetical situations. I'm personally concerned about future regulations, but those regulations could/would exist independently of this specific system. Further, Dropbox, Facebook, Microsoft, Google, etc all have user data unencrypted on their servers and are also just as vulnerable to said legislation. If the argument is this is searching your device, well the current implementation is its only searching what would be uploaded to a server instead. If you suggest that could change to anything on your device due to legislation, wouldn't that happen anyway? And then what is Google going to do... not follow the same laws? Both companies would have to implement new architectures and systems for complying.
I'm generally concerned about the future of privacy, but I think people (including myself initially) have gone too far in losing their minds.
At no point is anyone besides Apple able to view any NeuralHash hashes from the CSAM database. You can verify the database is the same on all iPhones, but you are not able to look at any of the hashes.
Is the issue that you want to take a given photo that you believe the CCP or whomever is scanning for, compute a NeuralHash, and then see if that's in the db? Or are you wanting to see if your db is different from other phone's db's? Because I think the later is the one that most people are concerned about.
You'd have to switch to a dumb phone. Assuming you can find one that works on contemporary networks.
didn't they already say the DB would be nation dependent?
> • Database update transparency: it must not be possible to surreptitiously change the encrypted CSAM database that’s used by the process.
> • Database and software universality: it must not be possible to target specific accounts with a different encrypted CSAM database, or with different software performing the blinded matching.
I mean, you can argue that Apple's safeguards are insufficient etc., but at least acknowledge that Apple has thought about this, outlined some solutions, and considers it a manageable threat.
ETA:
> Since no remote updates of the database are possible, and since Apple distributes the same signed operating system image to all users worldwide, it is not possible – inadvertently or through coercion – for Apple to provide targeted users with a different CSAM database. This meets our database update transparency and database universality requirements.
> Apple will publish a Knowledge Base article containing a root hash of the encrypted CSAM hash database included with each version of every Apple operating system that supports the feature. Additionally, users will be able to inspect the root hash of the encrypted database present on their device, and compare it to the expected root hash in the Knowledge Base article. That the calculation of the root hash shown to the user in Settings is accurate is subject to code inspection by security researchers like all other iOS device-side security claims.
> This approach enables third-party technical audits: an auditor can confirm that for any given root hash of the encrypted CSAM database in the Knowledge Base article or on a device, the database was generated only from an intersection of hashes from participating child safety organizations, with no additions, removals, or changes. Facilitating the audit does not require the child safety organization to provide any sensitive information like raw hashes or the source images used to generate the hashes – they must provide only a non-sensitive attestation of the full database that they sent to Apple.
[1] https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Security_Threat_Model...
Apple will cave. They've demonstrated the technology works. The CCP is paying attention. Look for this feature to be mandated across all phones soon. Pandora's box has been opened.
[0]: https://xkcd.com/538/ (this link comes up with terrifying frequency on HN)
If we lived in a world where the people who make these kind of decisions for companies were actually accountable in this way, life might be better in a lot of different ways. But sadly we do not.
I thought countries often have under the table agreements with one another to explicitly spy on each others citizens, since its illegal for the country to spy on its own citizens. It's illegal for the other country too, but it's a lot easier to turn a blind eye to it.
These "everyone is doing it" statements are nonsense. Not everything is doing it.
The USA is probably doing it for them.
NSA tapped German Chancellery for decades, WikiLeaks claims
NSA spying row: Denmark accused of helping US spy on European officials
US caught spying on EU ‘allies’ AGAIN…not like the Europeans will do anything about it
Great (depressing) Twitter account: Is EU Concerned? @ISEUConcerned Very, deeply, strongly, seriously, gravely, extremely, unprecedentedly
This may have shifted over time as China, Russia, NK, Iran increase their attacks, but it doesn’t diminish the fact that the EU is also hacking the US without repercussions.