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Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by zbobet2012 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:09PM (#28236452)
That's not the route in which this will be exploited, and used at scale.

A corrupt government has to know they want you "to just get you". Instead they will embed a collision in anti-government meme. That collision will flag you, and now they know you harbor doubts and will come get you.

This is why it's a privacy concern. It's no the tech (like you said photo dna's been about forver), it's the scanning of the phone.

Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by flycaliguy on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:21PM (#28236634)
A corrupt government will also enjoy the “chilling effect” created by people’s fear of tainting their phone with illegal images.
Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by kempbellt on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:26PM (#28236703)
I feel like a corrupt government would want people to trust their phones.
Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by tgsovlerkhgsel on Thursday August 19, 2021 @02:36PM (#28237536)
IIRC many totalitarian governments, historical and current, made/make their surveillance blatantly obvious, because the chilling effect deterring people is much more valuable than the added intelligence value from keeping people careless.

After all, they want to suppress dissent, and they can't catch and arrest everyone - it's much more effective if people don't even dare to voice their dissent.

This is also why you see people in situations like the Arab Spring use known-insecure/monitored means of communication, because they realize that the value and power that comes from communicating and finding other likeminded people is worth painting a target on yourself (because you can't succeed without it, and if you succeed, there will be too many to prosecute).

Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by benjaminpv on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:41PM (#28236876)
Alternatively, a corrupt government might want folks to distrust their mass market phone such that they can have an individual come along and offer them a 'completely secure and private' alternative[1].

[1]: https://www.pcmag.com/news/fbi-sold-criminals-fake-encrypted...

Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by mrtranscendence on Thursday August 19, 2021 @02:52PM (#28237754)
> That collision will flag you, and now they know you harbor doubts and will come get you.

Only if that government has worked out some deal with Apple whereby such an anti-government meme would end in the government being notified accordingly. Don't forget that you need a sufficiently high number of collisions, for one, and that those collisions are audited by Apple before being sent to law enforcement.

Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by labcomputer on Thursday August 19, 2021 @10:44PM (#28241910)
Why do they need to work out a deal with Apple? Just bribe or blackmail the minimum wage reviewers.
Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by endisneigh on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:13PM (#28236503)
What you’re saying is already possible. Where are the examples of this happening? PhotoDNA has existed since 2008.
Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by biesnecker on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:17PM (#28236566)
Who is scanning your phone right now with PhotoDNA?
Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by endisneigh on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:18PM (#28236582)
Microsoft, Facebook and Google. More depending on what services you use
Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by biesnecker on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:19PM (#28236605)
They're not actively scanning your phone, they're actively scanning files you send them.
Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by KallDrexx on Thursday August 19, 2021 @05:35PM (#28239663)
That's not actually answering the question in the GP about why this is different.

Photos people send me to my Android are automatically sent through 3rd parties, either through MMS, Facebook messenger, Google Photos, or One Drive. Photos arriving on my device are almost guaranteed to be uploaded to both OneDrive and Google Photos based on how defaults of Android phones are setup.

So someone could already send hash collisions my way (purposely or inadvertently) and authoritarian governments already have access in their respective clouds (at least China does).

And yet, there are not stories of people being falsely accused of child porn due to PhotoDNA hash collisions.

Why does "on device for apple devices only" change the calculus.

Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by raxxorrax on Friday August 20, 2021 @03:53AM (#28243707)
Why waste a resource like that and throw them in prison when you have compromising material? That would be stupid. Epstein was probably a high society pimp and there probably was enough evidence for convictions. That wouldn't have happened if it didn't get public.
Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by endisneigh on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:20PM (#28236612)
That’s the same as what Apple is going to do - scan right before sending to iCloud
Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by danuker on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:35PM (#28236806)
The scanning on the device before the upload makes it easier to do surveillance.
Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by WesolyKubeczek on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:44PM (#28236924)
The same as what Apple is saying it's going to do, there's a difference.
Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by knodi123 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @02:50PM (#28237733)
Man, wouldn't you love to be the developer who gets assigned the feature to commit these horrible secret privacy violations with deeply evil ethical problems?

You don't even have to implement the feature. All you need is really good proof that you were asked to, and now your job at Apple is secure, along with a huge raise, for years if not for life. Something commensurate with what you and they both know they would lose in the PR damage and possible EU fines.

Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by vineyardmike on Thursday August 19, 2021 @03:57PM (#28238573)
> wouldn't you love to be the developer who gets assigned the feature

Also, they'd probably not use a Cupertino developer. I'm sure a dev in a nation with a lot less rights is easier for this sort of work. Find a nation where the protections for employees are worse and good jobs harder to find.

Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by vineyardmike on Thursday August 19, 2021 @03:55PM (#28238559)
> possible EU fines

Until the EU makes it a legal requirement. Which they're getting close to

Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by endisneigh on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:47PM (#28236959)
If you don't trust Apple then they could've already done what you're concerned about before they announced this. I don't really get it. Either you trusted Apple before this and you continue to, or you didn't before, and continue not to. If it's the later, then you shouldn't be using Apple services.
Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by tgsovlerkhgsel on Thursday August 19, 2021 @02:38PM (#28237553)
> If you don't trust Apple then they could've already done what you're concerned about before they announced this.

Not without the risk of it being discovered (either through a leak or because someone analyzes the software on the phone), and then having a much bigger scandal on hand.

Re:ImageNet contains naturally occurring Apple NeuralHash co... by ipaddr on Thursday August 19, 2021 @02:47PM (#28237699)
None of those are scannig your phone. None of them aside from google even sell a phone.

Everyone suspected they were scanning images for this and a number of other things on their services.