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Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by fsckboy on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:35PM (#28235960)
misleading title, the scientist Donna Strickland had had her page deleted before she won the Nobel prize and therefore did not have a page at the time she won the prize.
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by jessaustin on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:48PM (#28236145)
The current page was created in 2014. [edit: Although it looks like everything before 2018 got deleted in 2018? I don't understand all the notation on the history page. [0]] This is after she served in various roles (including president) at The Optical Society, and of course after developing chirped pulse amplification, for which she won the Nobel, during the 1980s.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donna_Strickland&...

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by tptacek on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:55PM (#28236255)
Are we looking at different things? I just wrote a whole long comment on this after poking around on WP about it, and I'd be glad to know if I got things completely scrambled. Because what I see is a page created in 2018, and a _lot_ of intra-WP coverage of the process that led to there not being a page before 2018, all of which squares with what this article says.
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by jessaustin on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:14PM (#28236525)
I'm probably misunderstanding something, but I do see some 2014 dates at the bottom of the page linked above. ISTM wikipedia was informed of this scientist in some fashion in 2014, and those contributions were deleted or set aside or whatever. I'm happy to be educated on this, but at least we can say that the process is obscure.

Of course the point is that GP's whinging about headlines is silly. Her Nobel paper was published in 1985.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by tptacek on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:25PM (#28236687)
You're right, I missed the stub from 2014. It was speedy-deleted for copyright infringement.
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by mjw1007 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:19PM (#28236600)
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=...

says that the 2014 version was deleted as "Unambiguous copyright infringement".

That will be why those revisions are no longer accessible.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by jessaustin on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:31PM (#28236760)
That would be a valid justification in general, but I'm curious in this particular case. Was this an infringement of another encyclopedia? Perhaps that publication could have been identified in the deletion note? Maybe even cited in the page itself? Basic facts about a human (birthdate, alma mater, publications, etc.) are not subject to copyright anyway, so a long flowery essay about the scientist could have been edited to the bare essentials. However, I suspect no such long flowery essay actually existed in 2014. After all, Strickland was a woman who hadn't won the Nobel.

Of course these questions are unanswerable due to the specific type of the deletion. Curious.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by mgbennet on Thursday August 19, 2021 @03:26PM (#28238205)
It's perfectly possible to find the source of the infringement with a little investigation. The user who created the page has a comment on their talk page notifying them that Donna Strickland page has been nominated for deletion due to "unambiguous copyright deletion". [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SteplightJohnson#Spe...] There's a link to the source that was copied, [http://www.osa.org/en-us/about_osa/leadership_and_volunteers...]. That leads to a 404, but in the Wayback Machine, I found this on Dr. Strickland: [https://web.archive.org/web/20130426010318/http://www.osa.or...] And the second paragraph is a word for word copy of the summary from the first edit in the history of the page, "Created page with ''''Donna Strickland''' is a past president of the Optical Society. She has worked on several committees within the OSA. She has been on the editorial board of O...'" [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donna_Strickland&...]
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by jessaustin on Thursday August 19, 2021 @03:37PM (#28238329)
So do you agree with the original deleting editor that quoting a press release is copyright infringement? We seem to be venturing farther and farther into Crazytown here...

Good job on chasing this down!

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by mgbennet on Thursday August 19, 2021 @04:13PM (#28238771)
Well, the article was copy pasted from a web page with a big old "Copyright ©2013 The Optical Society" at the bottom. So yeah, it's textbook copyright infringement; press releases (or publicity blurbs, in this case) are protected by copyright law. I don't think the Optical Society was likely to pursue legal action against Wikipedia for this, but it's perfectly reasonable for Wikipedia to enforce a policy of "don't copy paste copyrighted material into articles."
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by Ensorceled on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:41PM (#28236050)
No, that's the point, a woman doing such great work that she won the Nobel Prize had her profile deleted as "not notable".
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by BeetleB on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:01PM (#28236323)
People are assuming quite a bit.

If an article about a professor is written and has virtually no references, then it's not the admin's job to do research to see if she is notable or not. It should be tagged as "needs references" and if they are not provided, eventually deleted.

In her particular case, the article didn't even exist - only a draft did - which was not approved because it had no references. The rejection notice specifically suggests resubmitting with references.

The story/study about bias is interesting, but they picked a poor example to showcase.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by rob_c on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:17PM (#28236568)
Frankly when did Wikipedia admins start getting praised for not doing a thorough job and acting as gatekeepers?

This is likely the source of most biases.

Again. Leaving an article and requesting additions from the public is drastically different to deleting it because it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard.

This case proves that something in that process is making Wikipedia all the poorer for this being the case.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by BeetleB on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:43PM (#28236905)
> Again. Leaving an article and requesting additions from the public is drastically different to deleting it because it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard.

Correct, but irrelevant. There was no article. Only a draft specifically created and submitted to be reviewed. It was reviewed and fair feedback was provided. This is different from the process where an article already exists and is marked for deletion.

Edit: See here for more details:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28237054

Edit 2: There apparently was another article in 2014 which was deleted. The information above is about the more recent AFC that was deleted.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by Ensorceled on Thursday August 19, 2021 @03:18PM (#28238088)
We're not "assuming" anything. The article has the following quote:

> "But then [they] realized, 'Oh dear, it's even worse than we thought.' Because she did have a Wikipedia page. But it was nominated for deletion and then deleted."

If the article is misleading that's on them, not on us for believing the CBC did their homework.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by BeetleB on Thursday August 19, 2021 @03:50PM (#28238497)
Sorry, but the onus is on you as well.

> Because she did have a Wikipedia page. But it was nominated for deletion and then deleted."

The assumption people are making is that the Wikipedia page was appropriately written. If the page was just one line: "Blah blah is a tenured professor at a university", it changes the perspective completely.[2]

Additionally, as a reader, you should read a bit critically: Did you not think to ask yourself "Why was it deleted?" and then evaluate how well the article is written? Other commenters clearly did. As another commenter pointed out, they didn't interview any admins - all they did was get a statement from the Wikimedia foundation. It took less than an hour for me to find the article that was deleted, and trace through the Wikipedia process to see why it was deleted and what Wikipedia's policies are.[1] This is all absent from the article.

It's a pity, because the actual study probably is good and interesting, but that got buried because of shoddy journalism.

[1] In that the policy would recommend deletion even if this was a man.

[2] And oh boy I've found pages like that of professors I've known. And many of them really didn't do work warranting a Wikipedia entry.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by Ensorceled on Thursday August 19, 2021 @05:33PM (#28239632)
I see. The onus is on me to personally verify the details of a large, well respected news source.

But you are defending a Wikipedia editor for deleting a entry on a prominent scientist whose work eventually earns her a Nobel prize without any research at all...

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by BeetleB on Thursday August 19, 2021 @10:26PM (#28241756)
> The onus is on me to personally verify the details of a large, well respected news source.

I did not say that.

At all.

The onus is on you to understand what the article does and does not contain. The criticism of the article is about possibly vital pieces of information that are excluded. It's pretty obvious on a single read of the article that there is information missing.

The "extra work" is to uncover that missing piece, which is not your responsibility. However, being aware that then article is excluding relevant information is. You and only you are responsible for what you believe, and how you evaluate information coming to you.

Sorry, I do not want to engage with you if you don't read my comments properly.

> But you are defending a Wikipedia editor for deleting a entry on a prominent scientist whose work eventually earns her a Nobel prize without any research at all...

Yes, because that Wikipedia editor is not getting paid to do the research. Nor is it the editor's defined role. The journalist, however, is, and it is their role to do so.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by moonchrome on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:03PM (#28236349)
I don't know the specifics of what makes someone notable in Wikipedia standards - but Wikipedia is obviously not the Nobel committee - sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by rob_c on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:44PM (#28236091)
Thank you for saying it.
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by youeseh on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:41PM (#28236042)
Easy enough to fix: "Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia before rise to prominence points to wider bias"

I wish news outlets would stick to reporting the news.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by Ensorceled on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:47PM (#28236126)
You are missing the point of the article. This woman WAS prominent AND doing notable work AND was still deleted. The Nobel Prize, for the most part, recognizes notable work by prominent scientists.
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by tptacek on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:57PM (#28236290)
Repeating myself from upthread here, but it doesn't look like this person was deleted from Wikipedia at all. A newcomer asked if there should be a Strickland article, and a volunteer on the project said "based on the article you came up with, it doesn't look like there should be". The newcomer didn't have to ask; they could have (and probably should have) just posted the article directly, which is the ordinary process.
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by MichaelGroves on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:03PM (#28236356)
Right, the Nobel Prize didn't make her notable, it recognized her existing notability. What made her notable was the work she did before she got the prize. Wikipedian editors incorrectly failed to recognize her notability, because their byzantine bureaucracy is riddled with blind-spots.
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by jhgb on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:55PM (#28236249)
Prominent to optics experts before the award [EDIT: or perhaps not? See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28236537 ], clearly, not to Wikipedia editors. It's easy to tell who's prominent in distant past (it's the people in history textbooks), but if your guide to recent prominence is things like lists of awards or frequent mentions in the media, you may be getting some corner cases from time to time.
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by cool_dude85 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:02PM (#28236338)
Well, when you're wrong, and especially when you're exceptionally wrong as in this "corner case", it makes a lot of sense to try to understand what kind of process failure and institutional biases may have played a part in the bad decision. That's what the article's about.
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by jhgb on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:06PM (#28236396)
One of the problems with binary classifiers is that you can't simultaneously make low errors in both directions. That's not "an institutional failure", that's practically a law of nature. You have to live with the fact that sometimes you're wrong. What errors to make is the core of the feud between deletionists and inclusionists.
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by cool_dude85 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:19PM (#28236602)
>You have to live with the fact that sometimes you're wrong.

You don't have to live with the fact that your institutional process for sending articles to this binary classifier is biased, per the published study discussed in the article. Women's profiles make up 19% of the profiles on wikipedia but 25% of deletion nominations.

Even if your classifier was totally gender-blind (unlikely), by virtue of the process that leads to the classifier being invoked, more women's articles will be deleted.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by jhgb on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:29PM (#28236726)
The problem is that those numbers apply to articles that have already been written. Such small discrepancy could easily be explained by other things, such as editors writing new articles with their own bias. If you then apply even objective criteria to those articles and end up with deleting a larger portion of some group, I don't see how you can claim that the deleting classifier is biased without knowing what was deleted.
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by cool_dude85 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:40PM (#28236867)
"Such small discrepancy"? Women's articles are 30% more likely to be nominated than by random chance. That's actually quite a large discrepancy to be explained away by handwaving about how editors might be biased in including too many non-notable women. The journal article even claims it's exactly the opposite:

"Studies show that women’s biographies are slightly more notable than men’s (Wagner et al., 2016)"

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by jhgb on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:56PM (#28237078)
To me, 30% does absolutely not seem like a large discrepancy if there's push for inclusion of more women in Wikipedia and if these efforts are trying to compensate a 4:1 discrepancy in current articles. At that point you'd need several times more women's articles than you currently have so the idea that slightly more poor quality articles may be being deleted is definitely one of the obvious options.
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by not2b on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:06PM (#28236382)
Wikipedia editors need to fix that. The notability criteria are skewed, tending to think that every minor person in the pop culture is notable, but regularly dumping scientists and local elected officials (the latter is a problem when they run for higher office and people can't find information about them).

They could relax the standard for deletion and it wouldn't hurt anything. If some editors think someone is prominent and others don't, leave the article in place, even if the "not prominent" side has a majority. If the article doesn't meet standards, tag it as a stub or with the "multiple issues" tag.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by jhgb on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:15PM (#28236537)
> The notability criteria are skewed, tending to think that every minor person in the pop culture is notable

I think that's more a reflection of current society, of which people who create Wikipedia are recruited. If you want something more isolated from the whims of common folks, you still have Encyclopedia Britannica:

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Donna-Strickland

Except, oops, the oldest article in EB about Strickland is from mid-2019:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190601000000*/https://www.brit...

Hey, Wikipedia included her in late 2018 -- half a year before Britannica! I mean, you may be disappointed that someone didn't pick her for inclusion in Wikipedia before her Nobel award but then I have to ask what do you think about Britannica if you consider Wikipedia to be the one in need of a overhaul? Britannica is supposed to be written by subject experts, right? Not by us poor folks in our free time. Why didn't they include her years ago?

> They could relax the standard for deletion and it wouldn't hurt anything.

Then you're one of the inclusionists. It's a perfectly valid stance that some other editors will disagree with.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by emmelaich on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:32PM (#28236773)
Not only people in pop culture, but fictional people in pop culture!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daenerys_Targaryen

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by cool_dude85 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:43PM (#28236072)
Before rise to prominence? Presumably she did not publish the work that won her the Nobel and win it on the same day.

Surely publishing Nobel-level work in your field means you have already "risen to prominence."

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by jhgb on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:59PM (#28236309)
How do you tell before such an award is granted whether someone's work is Nobel-worthy or not? There's plenty of already-published works right now that will earn dozens of Nobels to some people in the next decade -- care to tell us which works we should be looking for?
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by cool_dude85 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:06PM (#28236383)
Luckily for me I'm not an admin on wikipedia, so I don't have to decide whose work is notable enough to justify a page. That's their problem.

And it's fine for them to get heat when they make bad decisions, or when people notice that those decisions are systematically biased. I don't have to solve the problem to say it's bad.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by rob_c on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:46PM (#28236111)
Modern research doesn't consist of magical researchers discovering new things in isolation.

This is not some marvel movie.

If someone has won the Nobel prize they've been changing and contributing in a huge way to their field of interest for many years.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by cf100clunk on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:45PM (#28236103)
Or better yet: "You'll read this if we say 'Nobel scientist' instead of just 'Academic', right?"

Anyway, as an admitted pedant, even I didn't make a big deal of the title.

Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by mcguire on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:52PM (#28237025)
"Strickland's case wasn't an anomaly, said Tripodi. "What I discovered is even women who are meeting these notoriously difficult hurdles of notability are still twice as likely to be considered non-notable and nominated for deletion.""
Re:Nobel scientist's deletion from Wikipedia points to wider... by codezero on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:40PM (#28236025)
This is covered in the article. Also, most Nobel winners are notable for their work long before winning the actual prize.