News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by sitharus on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:42AM (#28219533)
So the person would have to accept and save an image that when looks enough like CSAM to confuse a reviewer…
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by formerly_proven on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:59AM (#28219632)
Yes, the diligent review performed by the lowest-bidding subcontractor is an excellent defense against career-ending criminal accusations. Nothing can go wrong, this is fine.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by saynay on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @07:23AM (#28219759)
I would think there is way easier ways to frame someone with CSAM then this. Like dump a thumbdrive of the stuff on them and report them to the police.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by Sebb767 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:32AM (#28220198)
The police will not investigate every hint and a thumbdrive still has some plausible deniability. Evidence on your phone looks far worse and, thanks to this new process, law enforcement will receive actual evidence instead of just a hint.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by hdjjhhvvhga on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @07:07AM (#28219670)
My WhatsApp automatically saves all images to my photo roll. It has to be explicitly turned off. When the default is on, it's enough that the image is received and the victim has CP on their phone. After the initial shock they delete it, but the image has already been sent to Apple, where a reviewer marked it as CP. Since the user already gave them their full address data in order to be able to use the app store, Appla can automatically send a report to the police.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by tpush on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:39AM (#28220778)
> [...] Appla can automatically send a report to the police.

Just to clarify, Apple doesn't report anyone to the police. They report to NCMEC, who presumably contacts law enforcement.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by dannyw on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:13PM (#28224273)
FBI agents work for NCMEC. NCMEC is created by legislation. They ARE law enforcement, disguised as a non-profit.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by zimpenfish on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @07:25AM (#28219774)
> but the image has already been sent to Apple, where a reviewer marked it as CP

No, the images are only decryptable after a threshold (which appears to be about 30) is breached. If you've received 30 pieces of CSAM from WhatsApp contacts without blocking them and/or stopping WhatsApp from automatically saving to iCloud, I gotta say, it's on you at that point.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by basilgohar on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @07:55AM (#28219974)
Just a side point, a single WhatsApp message can contain up to 30 images. 30 is the literal max of a single message. So ONE MESSAGE could theoretically contain enough images to trip this threshold.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by zimpenfish on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:05AM (#28220035)
> a single WhatsApp message can contain up to 30 images

A fair point, yes, and somewhat scuppering towards my argument.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by avianlyric on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @07:55AM (#28219970)
You’re aware that people sleep at night, and phones for the most part don’t, right?
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by BrianOnHN on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @07:43AM (#28219893)
Victim blaming because of failure to meet some seemingly arbitrary limit, ok.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by kleene_op on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:07AM (#28220485)
Not necessarily.

If you know the method used by Apple to scale down flagged images before they are sent for review, you can make it so the scaled down version of the image shows a different, potentially misleading one instead:

https://thume.ca/projects/2012/11/14/magic-png-files/

At the end of the day:

- You can trick the user into saving an innocent looking image

- You can trick Apple NN hashing function with a purposely generated hash

- You can trick the reviewer with an explicit thumbnail

There is no limit to how devilish one can be.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by avianlyric on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @07:54AM (#28219965)
The reviewer may not be looking at the original image. But rather the visual derivative created during the hashing process and sent as part of the safety voucher.

In this scenario you could create an image that looks like anything, but where it’s visual derivative is CSAM material.

Currently iCloud isn’t encrypted, so Apple could just look at the original image. But in future is iCloud becomes encrypted, then the reporting will be don’t entirely based on the visual derivative.

Although Apple could change this by include a unique crypto key for each uploaded images within their inner safety voucher, allowing them to decrypt images that match for the review process.

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by the8472 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:49AM (#28219567)
Depending on what algorithm apple uses to generate the "sample" that's shown to the reviewer it may be possible to generate a large image that looks innocent unless downscaled with that specific algorithm and to a specific resolution
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by labcomputer on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:42AM (#28222846)
So here's something I find interesting about this whole discussion: Everyone seems to assume the reviewers are honest actors.

It occurs to me that compromising an already-hired reviewer (either through blackmail or bribery) or even just planting your own insider on the review team might not be that difficult.

In fact, if your threat model includes nation-state adversaries, it seems crazy not to consider compromised reviewers. How hard would it really be for the CIA or NSA to get a few of their (under cover) people on the review team?

Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by spoonjim on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @04:22PM (#28226582)
I don't see how a perfectly legal and normal explicit photograph of someone's 20-year-old wife would be indistinguishable to an Apple reviewer from CSAM, especially since some people look much younger or much older than their chronological age. So first, there would be the horrendous breach of privacy for an Apple goon to be looking at this picture in the first place, which the person in the photograph never consented to, and second, could put the couple in legal hot water for absolutely no reason.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by brokenmachine on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:12PM (#28229241)
The personal photo is unlikely to match a photo in the CSAM database though, or at least that's what is claimed by Apple with no way to verify if it's true or not.
Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by Grustaf on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:17AM (#28220566)
Not one image. Ten, or maybe 50, who knows what the threshold is.
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Re:Hash collision in Apple NeuralHash model by tubbs on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:21AM (#28220122)
I would suggest not clicking this link on a work device.