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A comment on Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero. Parent comment

Re:Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero by numpad0 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @02:36PM (#28132500)
I never fully understood why some cultures assume humans must be fundamentally different - it’s not a universal notion.

Some hypothesizes and argues that our ancestors extinguished every other species that showed intelligence by eating them, which I think is a bit too wild of a theory. But maybe the fact that it’s often small birds that shows intelligence is also interesting. They’re among hardest to hunt.

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Re:Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero by MaxfordAndSons on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:34PM (#28133175)
A relevant quote by the anthropologist Marshall Sahlins that always sticks with me regarding the humanity of animals, (paraphrased):

> The attitude that animals are basically humans seems much healthier than the converse.

From his book https://www.prickly-paradigm.com/titles/the-western-illusion...

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Re:Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero by anigbrowl on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:19PM (#28134730)
Descartes considered animals to be little better than automata and given his high social position and intellectual achievements, and the convenience of this argument for his co-religionists, it stuck. Even today (and right here on HN), any sort of conjecture on the inner life of animals tends to bring out a few finger-waggers condemning 'athropmorphism.'

https://philosophynow.org/issues/108/Descartes_versus_Cudwor...

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Re:Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero by fsckboy on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:34PM (#28133177)
> some cultures assume humans must be fundamentally different - it’s not a universal notion.

Are you referring to hunter gatherers doing a mystical bear or eagle dance? Reincarnation as an ant? in those cases, it is belief in a non-corporeal spirit-being that underpins the other belief. Do you believe in non-corporeal spirit-beings, and if you do, aren't you more mystified by people who don't believe in them; or vice versa?

Otherwise, I'm skeptical and would love citations?

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Re:Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero by burnished on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:31PM (#28134028)
Like, judeo-christianity? Western societies viewpoints on human intelligence and how it relates to animal intelligence for centuries? The notion, typically, is that while humans are animals our intelligence is not just different in degree but different in kind. I think it comes from that bit in the bible where their god places humans as above all other life forms, just a guess though.
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Re:Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero by fsckboy on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:47PM (#28134276)
you're telling me what I know, where I'm asking about the commenter's claim that there are cultures that do NOT do this
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Re:Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @11:09PM (#28137485)
It's not quite the same thing as "intelligence", but in "Braiding Sweetgrass" Robin Wall Kimmerer describes how (at least) several native American cultures ascribe great wisdom to the trees, since they've been here longer, and regard human wisdom as rather primitive.
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Re:Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero by aksss on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:42PM (#28135024)
That's a bit of hyperbole, isn't it? You never understood why some [most] cultures assume humans must be fundamentally different [than other animals]?? Well, smelting iron ore, and a long, long list of other unique accomplishments never replicated by any other species on the planet [or known universe for that matter] tends to crystalize the observation that there is something fundamentally different about this singular species. That animals are smarter than human cultures have ever generally given them credit for doesn't bridge this enormous gulf. Humans generally think less of (underestimate) anything not relevant to their immediate existence, including other humans (from other cultures, time periods, political parties, etc). Same reason my dog is uniquely intelligent, and can even understand English, but dogs in general are not intelligent. Maybe this tendency to denigrate is an evolved survival skill. Nonetheless, call me when the seagulls start splitting atoms.
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Re:Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero by emodendroket on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @11:44PM (#28137744)
There is also no other animal with something like the human capacity for language, despite much effort being made to prove the opposite.
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Re:Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero by emodendroket on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @11:45PM (#28137758)
> I never fully understood why some cultures assume humans must be fundamentally different - it’s not a universal notion.

Well, riddle me this. In this thread people are marveling at animals doing things like using automatic doors and opening bags of chips. Who would be impressed if a human did these things? I don't exactly find myself persuaded by these examples that actually animal intelligence is just like human intelligence.

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