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Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by Barrin92 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @04:18AM (#28105062)
I think Britain has for a long time been less classist already. Article reminded me immediately of a NYT piece from a few years ago (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/10/opinion/sunday/stop-prete...)

"The American myth of meritocracy allows them to attribute their position to their brilliance and diligence, rather than to luck or a rigged system. At least posh people in England have the decency to feel guilty.In Britain, it is politically impossible to be prime minister and send your children to the equivalent of a private high school. Even Old Etonian David Cameron couldn’t do it. In the United States, the most liberal politician can pay for a lavish education in the private sector. Some of my most progressive friends send their children to $30,000-a-year high schools. The surprise is not that they do it. It is that they do it without so much as a murmur of moral disquiet."

The US has a sort of Andy Warhol style egalitarianism of "a coke is a coke and rich and poor alike drink it" going on but not much else. In the US progressive tech workers live in secluded suburbs, in London you see the poshest banker taking the tube without much concern. Exception in the US is maybe only NYC.

Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by pjc50 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @05:17AM (#28105290)
If Britain were meritocratic the cabinet wouldn't be made out of people who've failed upwards.

> In Britain, it is politically impossible to be prime minister and send your children to the equivalent of a private high school.

They are afforded some privacy, but all of Boris Johnson's "legitimate" children went to private schools as far as I can tell.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1141456/Boris-johnso... (sorry it's the sexpress, but this is fundamentally prurient)

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2021/08/01/how-many-children-does... "unconfirmed" child

Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by rwmj on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:00AM (#28105532)
This is a peculiarity of the current administration made up of people who thought Brexit was a good idea. All the grandees of the Conservative party were thrown out of the party a couple of years ago.
Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by pjc50 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @09:41AM (#28106621)
This could well be the "new normal".
Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by secondcoming on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:20AM (#28105643)
How is running for election, and then being elected, considered 'failing upwards'?
Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by rsgrn on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:28AM (#28105674)
The people that won those elections are poor performers, bad strategists and often abdicate their responsibilities as leaders. If they were born poorer or lower class, they would not be where they are now.

They win elections with media support, even when taking opposite stances day to day because the people that own and run those media companies... Went to school with them.

It's like a big club, and most of us ain't in it.

But if you are in it, you can be stupid, lazy, incompetent or even outright evil and still succeed, aka, fail upwards.

Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by ben_w on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:43AM (#28105736)
That only requires they are more popular than the opposition, not that they are popular in an absolute sense, let alone that they are competent at their briefs. The main UK opposition party is… “meh”, in every regard that matters for electoral success.

In the last few weeks the UK press has been running stories about supermarket shelves being empty and a general collapse of the domestic logistics system; while the articles split blame for this between Brexit and the self-isolation requirements created during the pandemic, in both cases the buck stops with the government.

There have been other substantial indicators of incompetence at least since Johnson took office.

Despite this, the government has generally been ahead in the polls.

Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by misnome on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:29AM (#28105683)
You don’t get elected to the cabinet
Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by KaiserPro on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:35AM (#28105708)
this is specifically about the cabinet.

They have been chosen because they are mostly either stupid, or loyal.

Patel is the only one there because she's a leadership threat (as shes the only one more obviously authoritarian and populist than Johnson)

Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by dkdbejwi383 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:27AM (#28105670)
Uncle Rupert doesn’t let his favourite nieces and nephews fall too far.
Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by pjc50 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @09:41AM (#28106617)
I had specific incidents in mind. Boris Johnson has been sacked, twice, for dishonesty: https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/times-boris-johnson-flat-lied-13...

> Johnson was hired by the Times through family connections, and fired for a front-page fabrication within months – on his very first front page story

> In November 2004, Boris Johnson was a shadow arts minister under Michael Howard, Conservative Vice-Chair, and editor of the Spectator – when it was reported in multiple tabloids that he had a years-long affair with one of the magazine’s columnists, which had resulted in two terminated pregnancies.

> Johnson publicly stated the allegations were untrue, calling them an “inverted pyramid of piffle”, and made the same assurances they were false to Michael Howard. When proof of the allegations was presented, Howard asked Johnson to resign, only for him to refuse and therefore be fired for dishonesty, for the second time in his career.

[sidebar: I'd forgotten that Michael Howard was editor of the Spectator. It's basically the official opinion journal of the Tory party]

Grant Shapps is another one with a significant career of failures; https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/16/revealed-gr... he ran a spammy business under a false name.

He's also got previous for cryptocurrency bribery https://www.ft.com/content/cd8f78f8-2850-3109-b577-269eedb1e... and a bullying scandal that involved the suicide of a young activist https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grant-shapps-...

Gavin Williamson is a fairly minor offender; his only previous sacking was for leaks, and everybody leaks all the time https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48126974

More broadly, the UK has a whole category of unelected legislators - the House Of Lords - who are political appointees, sometimes with money changing hands, who are not accountable to the electorate and cannot be removed. Can't get less meritocratic than that while still being a democracy.

Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by truculent on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:03AM (#28105549)
OP’s suggestion is that Britain is more meritocratic than the USA, so I think your point can coexist with theirs.
Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by smcl on Sunday August 08, 2021 @05:07AM (#28105244)
> In Britain, it is politically impossible to be prime minister and send your children to the equivalent of a private high school

Whoever wrote this is being a little disingenuous. The pipeline from a handful of private schools to the upper echelons of power (via Oxbridge) in the UK is very well known. The fact that the press wouldn't let the PM away with sending their kids to Eton or Harrow doesn't really change this or make the country more meritocratic, it just means we all pretend they're just like the rest of us for a few years.

Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by sharikous on Sunday August 08, 2021 @05:21AM (#28105310)
Of course. But it is a significant data point in describing the culture divide between the UK and the US.

The whole topic deserves an entire book. Even then, the answer "who is the most meritocratic" won't receive a straight answer. The point that British culture does not allow the prime minister to send their children to fancy schools is a meaningful one to make, among many others.

It puts the UK closer to the Scandinavian/Northern European countries and the USA closer to less-than-democratic countries (MENA, Africa, Russia, China) on this particular axis.

Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by smcl on Sunday August 08, 2021 @05:50AM (#28105480)
It’s certainly an interesting wee fact but I don’t think it says anything about whether the UK should be considered more or less meritocratic. I think it’s a fig leaf where we get to pretend we are a super progressive country that is smashing its class system, while doing very little to that effect.

To be clear - I don’t care where David Cameron, Theresa May, Boris et al send their kids to school. I care that such schools exist effectively to officially stamp you as a member of the upper class.

Edit: I hope this doesn’t sound like I’m annoyed with you or the original commenter! I have some strong feelings about this but I am aware that you didn’t create this system, that you are not standing up for it or trying to protect it. We’re just having a discussion and as you say it really deserves an entire book

Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by WalterBright on Sunday August 08, 2021 @05:04AM (#28105227)
That's because London has a very good tube system, such is completely absent in the US. Except maybe NYC. Attributing preference for the tube to some sort of moral humility is a stretch.
Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by Brakenshire on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:12AM (#28105595)
The quality of the Tube and the bus system is dependent on rich and poor people using it though, it doesn’t happen in a vacuum.
Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by chrisseaton on Sunday August 08, 2021 @04:59AM (#28105205)
> The US has a sort of Andy Warhol style egalitarianism of "a coke is a coke and rich and poor alike drink it" going on but not much else.

I think this is the key bit and that's really well put.

Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by WalterBright on Sunday August 08, 2021 @05:05AM (#28105233)
Water is far better for you than a coke any day.
Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by atomashpolskiy on Sunday August 08, 2021 @05:28AM (#28105352)
It's like one of the most wide-known facts about Warren Buffet is that he likes fast food and coke and even bought himself a diner. Or that Bill Gates drinks (or drank at some point) at least one can of coke a day. So cute, so down to earth! See, they're just like us!
Re:Is Britain becoming more meritocratic than America? by lostmsu on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:22PM (#28123053)
Frankly, this seems like a weird argument.

By analogy, should not all British politicians also only eat food provided by government food stamps?