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Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by yodon on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:34PM (#28093555)
If we were to have a mass extinction event today, the "survivors" would quickly find that all the readily accessible surface level fuel sources are long gone and have already been consumed. In the 1600's or 1700's it wouldn't have been that difficult, but today the challenge of getting access to power is going to make restarting civilization somewhere between difficult and impossible.

Try finding enough burnable wood near an emerging city/town to provide warmth and power while you restart civilization and I think you'll discover that humanity has already cut down the majority of the forests, tapped the majority of the oil Wells that can produce oil without lots of supporting tech, and mined most of the easily mineable coal. Sure, you can get a bit of power, but it's going to take a lot of both power and specialized skilled labor to restart our power sources civilization after a mass extinction event. The chances are extremely good that even if you can resume making babies you can't resume making the power those babies will need to achieve the goals we would have for them. On the surface of the Earth today it takes more power and skills to gain access to power than survivors are likely to have.

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by GekkePrutser on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:38PM (#28093590)
Trees grow back pretty quickly (they're talking timescales of thousands of years for this plan) and that's all humanity needs for energy to start.

The main reason we need all that power is for our creature comforts. We don't technically need them to survive but we don't know how to live without them anymore. There being billions of us doesn't help either. A rebooted humanity shouldn't have too much difficulty with that though.

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by yodon on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:48PM (#28093654)
If you have a mass extinction event and go more than a generation or two without restarting, all the skills and education will be gone which means you're restarting from zero. We needed readily available high grade energy sources to get to high grade renewables, and those trying to restart civilization will as well, but by the time the get there their forest will be consumed just as ours are, and they won't have oil and coal to discover to get them the bridge to solar or nuclear or high tech wind and tidal power.
Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by roca on Friday August 06, 2021 @07:47PM (#28094145)
> all the skills and education will be gone which means you're restarting from zero.

Not at all. There will be books containing most human knowledge. It would be hard work for the rebooters to reacquire those skills but much, much easier than redeveloping them from scratch. Plus in many cases there will be artifacts around that can either be reused directly or as models.

> those trying to restart civilization will as well

Rebooting doesn't have to follow the same development path that we took to get here.

It would be very interesting and potentially important to try to find shorter, easier paths to modern technology. It's not obvious to me that such paths can't exist. If they do exist we can record them to guide future generations.

I'm only personally familiar with the (current) high end of technology, but for example once you get to the point where you're building microprocessors we know that you should build something simple like RISC-V which lets you skip generations of mistakes. If you actually build RISC-V then we can arrange to have a whole lot of archived software ready for you to use.

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by zizee on Friday August 06, 2021 @07:40PM (#28094086)
> We needed readily available high grade energy ...

You say this as if it is a fact. It's a decent theory, but it's hardly so certain that you should write with such conviction.

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by hfkfktnekfm on Friday August 06, 2021 @07:39PM (#28094077)
Are you saying that in 100 years all the books in the world will be gone? Absolutely nothing will survive, and post apocalyptic man will not think at all about preserving this knowledge?
Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by joe_g_young on Saturday August 07, 2021 @11:57AM (#28099568)
Radiation cats [1] would serve as a warning when books disappear.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Interference_Task_Forc...

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by yosito on Friday August 06, 2021 @07:24PM (#28093959)
> Try finding enough burnable wood near an emerging city/town to provide warmth and power while you restart civilization and I think you'll discover that humanity has already cut down the majority of the forests

Tree cover is actually increasing. Your comment reads like you've only ever seen a forest on TV... I suggest you step away from your computer screen and go for a hike.

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by yodon on Friday August 06, 2021 @07:29PM (#28094012)
I'm pretty sure anywhere there is a functioning port or navigable water way the number of trees within a day's walk is insufficient to support the needs of the population that humanity would need in that location to restart civilization. The fact that you can get in your car and drive to a beautiful forest doesn't actually help much.
Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by helloworld11 on Saturday August 07, 2021 @06:53PM (#28102598)
Nonsense. You really should go take a good look at Google Earth. I come from a major port city in a first world country and literally right outside the city's urban area start forests that stretch for hundreds of kilometres. I know for a fact that many other cities like this along coastlines exist.
Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by hfkfktnekfm on Friday August 06, 2021 @07:36PM (#28094052)
Amazon, Africa, ....

And you underestimate how quickly forests will grow back. Sure, it will take maybe 100 years, but civilization was built in 4000, so there is no rush.

Also, Saudi Arabia is sitting on an ocean of oil, not that hard to extract.

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by mxfh on Friday August 06, 2021 @07:12PM (#28093860)
The 1600s were the worst time to find wood. Forestation levels now are quite significantly above that period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holznot
Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by actually_a_dog on Friday August 06, 2021 @08:48PM (#28094559)
Water, wind, and solar would all be available to people rebooting civilization. The ancient Romans used these, and more.

https://brewminate.com/energy-in-ancient-times/

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by chmod775 on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:46PM (#28093637)
Turning wind, sun, or water into a good source of electricity is fairly low-tech.

There's also still a ton of easily accessible lignite everywhere, which our present civilization doesn't really care about for its inefficiency and ecological concerns.

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by calvinmorrison on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:55PM (#28093711)
Also wood gasification can trivially take wood inputs and run internal combustion engines.
Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by masklinn on Saturday August 07, 2021 @08:31AM (#28098115)
Trees are really not the issue, once you stop fucking with them they grow back quickly.

It’s the ores which are going to be problematic. As well as the coal obviously but there charcoal is an option, just not as easy.

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by njarboe on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:39PM (#28093603)
Plenty of water power.
Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by yodon on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:43PM (#28093626)
It takes a lot of tech to turn a River into a source of heat, and it takes still more tech to produce that tech that you need to pull it off. Water is an easy source of power for some things, but for most chemical processes what you need is heat (and most of the tech you're going to need to restart civilization is at some level going to be rooted in chemical processes)
Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by FooBarBizBazz on Saturday August 07, 2021 @11:48AM (#28099478)
You can turn work into heat with friction or turbulence. You don't need electrical thingamajigs. But even "small" amounts of heat involve huge amounts of energy. If I haven't just made a mistake, it takes 40 MJ to raise a bathtub full of water from room temperature to bathwater temperature.

Better to use trees and wood for heat: The original solar power system.

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by FooBarBizBazz on Saturday August 07, 2021 @04:40PM (#28101635)
Redoing the math, I get more like 20 MJ to heat a bathtub.

For comparison, supposedly Teslas ship with 80 kWh = 288 MJ batteries. So you can take 14.6 baths with the energy in that battery.

That's more than I'd expected.

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by chmod775 on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:48PM (#28093645)
> It takes a lot of tech to turn a River into a source of heat.

No it doesn't. Turning motion into electricity is fairly easy, and turning electricity into heat is even more so.

The biggest hurdle will be manufacturing quality mechanical parts, but you can do without quality in a pinch.

Also producing heat is a matter of survival, not civilization. We can safely assume people will at least be able to make a fire.

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by yodon on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:54PM (#28093697)
You're thinking like a modern resident, not like someone living a decade after a global extinction event. Turning water into electricity requires significant infrastructure for making motors and generators and bearings and permanent magnets and transmission lines and the like (even if in principle the math/physics is easy)
Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by chmod775 on Friday August 06, 2021 @07:11PM (#28093852)
1. Bootstrap a smithy

2. Make incrementally better tools. You don't need to get to the level of medieval clockmakers, just as long as you're not hitting metal with a rock.

3. Make a draw plate.

4. Make lots and lots of copper wire.

5. Build a water wheel whichever way you want.

6. Attach bigger wheel (TM) and connect to smaller wheel (TM) with a rope drive.

7. Use copper wire to build a power generator attached to smaller wheel (TM).

Unless humanity got completely wiped off the planet with no artifacts left behind, most of the above should not be necessary though.

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by vkou on Friday August 06, 2021 @07:51PM (#28094171)
> 1. Bootstrap a smithy

I would recommend learning about what is involved in this step, before moving on to step 2.

https://acoup.blog/2020/09/18/collections-iron-how-did-they-...

This process is incredibly difficult, made moreso by the lack of easily accessible surface ore/coal. Also, keep in mind that when agricultural productivity is in the pits (Due to a lack of tooling, chemical feedstock, massive infrasturcture projects), and when you don't have the ability to make synthetic clothing (Which leads you to working with natural fibers, which is an incredibly labour-intensive process[1]), you aren't going to have the spare calories, or the hours in your day to 'just bootstrap a smithy'.

[1] https://acoup.blog/2021/03/05/collections-clothing-how-did-t...

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by roca on Friday August 06, 2021 @07:53PM (#28094192)
Where do you get the copper ore in this scenario? Existing natural easy-to-access ores have been mined out already. Would it be possible to mine the detritus of our civilization to get these ores?
Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by politician on Friday August 06, 2021 @08:23PM (#28094404)
In this scenario, the world would be covered in easily accessible metal scrap.
Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by yodon on Friday August 06, 2021 @07:24PM (#28093957)
It's all well and good to be optimistic, I'm a MacGyver too, but when society only gets one roll of the dice to restart after a mass extinction event I don't think it's advisable to discount the difficulties and challenges society will face trying to restart, with access to accessible energy sources being a major component of those challenges.
Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by bilbo0s on Friday August 06, 2021 @07:32PM (#28094032)
Maybe my brain's groggy, but how are we achieving self-excitation in this scenario? (I'm assuming there's no magnet in your setup as it's not explicitly called out.)
Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by chmod775 on Friday August 06, 2021 @08:52PM (#28094602)
No. Of course you need a magnet if you don't want to build a more complicated self-excitation design (building that would be quite the feat given the circumstances) or want to use a smaller dynamo to bootstrap an electromagnetic dynamo or even alternator.

But it's better to start with a magnet and stick to easy-to-debug stuff that can be eyeballed start to finish.

Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by seabj0rn on Friday August 06, 2021 @07:20PM (#28093927)
Back to whale oil I suppose!
Re:Humans could recolonize Earth after mass extinctions with... by bserge on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:48PM (#28093653)
Not sure anyone will shed a tear for the loss of this civilization after the mass extinction event was caused by them (us).