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Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by tpmx on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:24PM (#28067225)
That would be awesome, but unfortunately the CCP have proven to us that we can't trust their word.
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by tablespoon on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:36PM (#28067348)
> That would be awesome, but unfortunately the CCP has proven to us that we can't trust their word. Over and over again.

IMHO, claims like this from them should be believed 100%, because to do otherwise invites complacency.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by smhost on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:54PM (#28067494)
this also isn't the type of thing that governments tend to lie about. it's not like a scenario where a contractor overpromises and underdelivers and government media has to do damage control. they're also not announcing some new leap in scientific understanding. it's old science.
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by wolverine876 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:00PM (#28067542)
> this also isn't the type of thing that governments tend to lie about

This is the sort of thing governments lie about, IME - big, sensational achievements that enhance their status.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by notahacker on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:58PM (#28068009)
It's the sort of claim thats fairly meaningless to the average person, but becomes meaningful and embarrassing if its exposed as vaporware (and the sort of person that's more impressed by this than any other announcement about power stations is the sort of person that's really interested in the detail of how it'll work).

During the Cold War the US and USSR made all sorts of tendentious claims about the superiority of their socioeconomic systems, their military prowess and mendacious things the other side was supposed to be doing and denied all sorts of things they actually did, but they didn't try to lie their way to the front of the Space Race.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by godelski on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:24PM (#28069044)
> It's the sort of claim thats fairly meaningless to the average person,

We're talking about it, aren't we? I've also seen this news on Reddit. Propaganda doesn't have to be a one size fits all. Targeting armchair experts and tech enthusiasts can still be useful. The point is that people are talking about how awesome your country is. Real or fake, I'd call this news story a success for China.

I'm not saying this technology is vaporware or not, I don't know. I'm just saying that the argument I'm responding to isn't great. I'd also like to mention that propaganda doesn't even imply that something is fake. Sputnik was real and also a great propaganda machine because it got people talking about it but so were other niche things like Russian Chess players and Russian mathematicians. We have international math competitions, you think those aren't used by propagandists? The average person cares nothing about a math competition.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by zepto on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:53PM (#28069256)
> but becomes meaningful and embarrassing if its exposed as vaporware

I’d argue that almost no claim like this is even remembered, let alone becomes ‘embarrassing’.

On the other hand when people see them it definitely creates the propaganda or marketing value of China being ‘ahead’ in some way.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by davidjytang on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:42AM (#28071279)
I'm next door to them. They are really good at spinning stories to their people. However embarrassing.

Recent flood, one of the state media headlined an outright lie that US govt states that China earned respect from around the globe through its flood rescue effort. Lied about the amount of rainfall and the capabilities of their dams. Some TV news station just never show flood footage. Any challenge to the effort is branded as foreign influence.

For story like this if turned out to be vapor, the blame would be easily placed in thousands of places but themselves.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by craftinator on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:21PM (#28068186)
It would be incredibly stupid, at many levels, to lie about something that is so public and scientifically scrutable. There's almost no benefit, at a national level, to lying about this, and when the world eventually learns of the lie, which it would quite quickly, China would be the laughing stock of the scientific world, which is the opposite of what the CCP wants.

So no, this is not a lie, because it would be both obviously stupid, and obviously not in the best interest of China to do that; not even an amazingly shitty and disorganized government would be that stupid, and the Chinese government is quite coherent, and very good at acting I it's own interests.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by smhost on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:10PM (#28067610)
maybe in movies. governments mostly tend to lie about things they did badly, not about long-term accomplishments that can be fairly easily measured against their previous record, currently level of expertise, etc.
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by sandworm101 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:49PM (#28067933)
Lies about industrial progress? About industrial capacity? That is exactly the sort of thing that China has lied about in the past. There is a great video of Putin laughing as a minister talks about all the pork they export to indonesia. These sorts of lies are normal for such nations. Nobody takes them too seriously, especially those telling them.
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by thinktankie on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:14PM (#28068131)
> “These sorts of lies are normal for such nations”

“I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole. We had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment.”

-Mike Pompeo, former CIA director and U.S Secretary of State [1]

[1] https://youtu.be/6RmEsPE7iq0?t=9

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by pyuser583 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:11AM (#28070104)
> teleSur is funded in whole or in part by several governments of Latin America.

Didn’t know that was a thing.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by smhost on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:04PM (#28068053)
if by "sort of thing" you mean anything related to industry, then maybe you're right. but this is a claim about a particular technology, not a claim about aggregate capacity. if you're using russia as a point of comparison, this is maybe the one area where it might not be to your advantage, since one of the few things russia excels at is producing and selling nuclear technology. people might not take russia's claims about pig exports too seriously, but people do take seriously their nuclear claims (such as announcements about nuclear icebreakers, or whatever).
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by wolverine876 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:15PM (#28067661)
> maybe in movies

No, I said "IME". Don't try to dismiss other people.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by arcticbull on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:36PM (#28067827)
I think some citations and evidence are generally preferable to broad sweeping statements prefixed with "in my experience" - I'm not saying you're wrong but you've given me no reason to believe.
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by wolverine876 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:53PM (#28083156)
I agree, though it seems hard to find evidence that would support this as a general trend (not just a few examples). It would require finding existing research, I think.

However, the dismissive response also has no evidence.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by SantalBlush on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:44PM (#28067902)
For the time being, I am going to dismiss you until you provide some actual evidence to support your claim.
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by kenned3 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @08:54AM (#28073018)
unfortunately the CCP has proven to us that we can't trust their word. Over and over again

Blaming others, deflection, and dishonesty is a common tactic used by every nation.

Remember when the blackout in 2003 was caused by Canada?

"Canadian officials insisted a massive blackout Thursday across the Northeast and parts of Canada originated in the United States, though U.S. power workers denied that and American officials blamed Canada."

Remember how the 9/11 terrorists also came from Canada? Canada doesn't control entry to the US, and they never came via Canada at all but this was often quoted in the media, as a deflection.

"Not one 9/11 terrorist entered the United States via Canada"

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by Someone on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:30PM (#28068240)
Reading the article, there aren’t huge scientific problems building these reactors. So, if there’s government support, it seems likely to me these will be built.

I also think China has proven that it is willing and able to rapidly build infrastructure. That makes me think their timeline can be in the right ballpark, too.

They also seem to have been willing to sacrifice quality for speed in large infrastructure projects, though (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision, https://www.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-40638820090627, https://www.npr.org/2012/08/29/160231137/chinese-blame-faile...)

That’s something I would worry more about (disclaimer: China is huge, so it will have its share of disasters. It also probably will pay more attention to nuclear projects than to bread-and-butter concrete pouring for buildings and roads)

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by acidburnNSA on Thursday August 05, 2021 @12:22AM (#28069837)
This guy on Twitter named Conrad Knauer [1] who has been diligently following satellite photos and cross-referencing them with the design publications for TMSR-1 that makes it all seem pretty believable. Pretty round-about way to verify things but it's something.

[1] https://twitter.com/ConradKnauer

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by petre on Thursday August 05, 2021 @07:54AM (#28072428)
> Moderator: nuclear graphite

This moderator develops cracks during normal operation as seen in UK's AGR several other designs. And it burns in case of an accident (Windscale, Chernobyl). Since the TMSR-LF1 is an experimental project I also assume that it's a single fluid design? More detailed information on the TMSR-LF1 is quite hard to find but it says that it's based on the original Oak Ridge MSR design.

"Old proposed single fluid designs promising breeding performance tend to have an unsafe positive void coefficient and often assume excessive fuel cleaning to be economic viable."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reacto...

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by jdavis703 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:36PM (#28067343)
They say they’re 9 years away. That’s a long enough date that I’d be skeptical of any government that was giving a prediction for nearly a decade out.
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by zepto on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:54PM (#28069264)
That’s far enough away to be essentially meaningless because nobody will remember the claim.
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by bell-cot on Friday August 06, 2021 @05:19AM (#28084891)
This. Is there any organization on earth - government, corporation, whatever - with even a mediocre track record for commercial-scale deployment of (fairly) radical new nuclear power technologies?
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by CyanBird on Thursday August 05, 2021 @12:01AM (#28069733)
You ought read the article rather than post your own mindless prejudices and mental cliches

Hackernews styles itself of thoughtful discussion

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by antman on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:55PM (#28067503)
My thinking is that for major projects they mostly deliver against our intuition. What are the counter examples which are over and over again?
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by thinktankie on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:03PM (#28067564)
Thank goodness China’s energy policy is not contingent on whether or not tpmx of Hackernews believes them or not.
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by duairc on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:55PM (#28067502)
> CCP has proven to us that we can't trust their word. Over and over again.

Are you able to substantiate that claim?

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by initplus on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:13PM (#28067639)
The whole country is structured so that verification by foreigners is next to impossible:

Foreign journalists cannot freely report from within the country. If the government does not like your reporting, you are forced to leave the country.

Information controls ensure that communication with China & the western world is controlled and subject to scrutiny. People in China cannot legally access most foreign news, or communicate with foreigners on social media. You cannot even access hackernews legally in China!

This creates an environment where it's extremely hard to actually vet any information about China, as there is such a strong communications barrier. Both for professional journalists and regular civilians. There is this immense culture of secrecy and information control that does not exist on the same scale anywhere else in the world.

Unsurprisingly this creates a situation where people distrust the words of the Chinese government. They have created this apparatus that prevents foreigners from verifying Chinese information.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by tpmx on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:07PM (#28067587)
> Are you able to substantiate that claim?

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/18/china-covid-19-killed-h...

It is widely known that when the new coronavirus emerged in December 2019, the Chinese government downplayed the pandemic threat for several critical weeks. Less commonly known is those same authorities deliberately sacrificed health workers to maintain their lies.

The Chinese Communist Party’s (CCP) calculated cover-up enabled the coronavirus to go global. By silencing doctors, Beijing not only fueled this pandemic but also compromised the world’s ability to spot the next one.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by robocat on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:08PM (#28068088)
Blaming China is pointless: Western countries had control of their borders and did not act.

Taiwan started its lockdown procedures on people entering from China on December 31st, 2019.

Taiwan knew what was happening, and all governments should have had similar knowledge - they certainly should not have been waiting for China to tell WHO or whatever other lame argument that article makes.

I am sick of the same boring cliché arguments being trotted out about how we think China should act: how we act is what matters.

Sorry, off topic I know.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by tpmx on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:16PM (#28068149)
I agree that the fault also lies with other countries for letting the virus in so easily. But the grandparent poster asked for an example where the CCP lied and I obliged.
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by refenestrator on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @09:24PM (#28068623)
The full story there is the local authorities lied initially, then the feds found out and fired them while slamming the red alert button. Mayor of Wuhan and Governor of Hubei sacked in the aftermath. This all happened MONTHS before the virus hit the US.

The CCP is 100 million people.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by kwere on Thursday August 05, 2021 @08:06AM (#28072538)
Yeah the problem Is the CCP itself with its incentive structure, not the "bad apples"
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by nicoffeine on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:36PM (#28067829)
Our government wasn’t any better.

January 20th, 2020: “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.”

February 11th, 2020: “In our country, we only have, basically, 12 cases and most of those people are recovering and some cases fully recovered. So it’s actually less.”

February 26th, 2020: “When you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”

March 10th, 2020: “This was unexpected. … And it hit the world. And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.”

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by mcv on Thursday August 05, 2021 @07:38AM (#28072319)
True, those were rather blatant lies, but also obvious lies. In the US, at least the lies of the government are easily exposed. In China, that's a lot harder.
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by maerF0x0 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:12PM (#28067629)
And before you downvote ^^ consider reading this page https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/foreign-policy/
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by smhost on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:14PM (#28067644)
> In review, Foreign Policy covers news related to foreign affairs with minimal bias. Headlines are generally free from loaded words, though at times moderate such as this: Bernie Sanders Still Doesn’t Pass the Commander-in-Chief Test (anti-progressive) and this Trump Doesn’t Want to Play Peacemaker (anti-Trump). Both articles use proper sourcing. In general, Foreign Policy leans slightly right in their news coverage but balanced in reporting and well-sourced.

This is hilarious. I wonder if there's a political group that benefits from attacking both these positions.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by maerF0x0 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:18PM (#28067683)
Are you implying a specific group?
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by smhost on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @07:36PM (#28067834)
yeah, the old clintonites, the sinemas, maybe you can toss mitt romney in there. they're the most powerful political bloc currently, if you're new to politics
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by refenestrator on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @08:15PM (#28068146)
Basically the entire national security mainstream.

If you consider "america should be the number one power and do whatever it takes to stay that way" to be an unbiased and neutral statement, then sure, Foreign Policy is unbiased.

I wouldn't go to them for a viewpoint inclusive of American rivals, though.

Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by maerF0x0 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @12:24PM (#28075910)
ok, so is it correct that you're suggesting that mediabiasfactcheck is giving a better rating to FP in order to benefit those groups? Sorry if i'm seeming indirect, but i'm still trying to piece together your actual point
Re:China Says It's Closing in on Thorium Nuclear Reactor by smhost on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:08PM (#28076532)