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Re:Pedestrian fatalities are rising in the US by ehnto on Saturday July 31, 2021 @01:55AM (#28015655)
Infrastructure can only help so much, you have to be in a bike friendly community for it to work really well from home to your destination. Of course on the sparodic separated bike lanes it goes well, but then you get to the last few miles and you're dropped into the traffic at the mercy of people who haven't seen a bicycle until now, and you are definitely in their space not the other way around.

Because people take time to change, I think the two bandaids for the social problem are expanding separated bike lanes and then dropping people into pedestrian/cycle shared streets, not the roads.

I know I know, you didn't buy the Ultegra gear set just to sit on the big ring dodging foot traffic, but a cycling city will need to cater to the majority of commuters not the speed machines. Most potential cycle commuters are just everyday people wanting to meander into work and around the city centers.

Re:Pedestrian fatalities are rising in the US by vladvasiliu on Saturday July 31, 2021 @02:14AM (#28015745)
I agree with your take that infrastructure is not enough, but I think it's still necessary, at least until there's a clear change in culture.

Over here in Paris, there still are many bike-related fatalities, and most cars are smaller than in the US, biking has been more popular (and feasible) for longer, etc. Yet people still don't pay attention. And by "people" I mean car drivers [0], bike riders [1] and pedestrians. [2]

Regarding pedestrian / cycle shared streets, it may overall be better that sharing with cars, but there have been quite a few cases involving scooters (as in Lime and the sort) and pedestrians, some of them fatal, on this kind of shared roads.

Not sure what the best approach would be to help change mentalities.

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[0] As a motorcyclist I try to make sure people have seen me / are going to stop and check / etc and the number of people I see completely absorbed by their phone seems to be climbing every day. Also, a new fashion in Paris for the last few years is running red lights.

[1] A few years ago I started seeing signs on trucks and buses along the lines of "blind spot / if you can't see my mirrors I can't see you / don't overtake on the right", usually with some cyclist behind. I've always been surprised by this, I thought people had figured that out. My motorcycle instructor taught us to be sure to be able to see a truck's mirrors when behind. My reaction was "duh", to which he responded "you'd be surprised".

[2] Many people walk into traffic without paying attention. The City has recently started deploying blinking lights on the border of sidewalks synchronized with traffic lights.

Re:Pedestrian fatalities are rising in the US by orwin on Saturday July 31, 2021 @04:27AM (#28016422)
for your [1], yeah, people don't really know how to bike in France, and that's becoming an issue in cities that started being bike-friendly.

It took 20 year to La Rochelle to have a really good bike infra and to get people to not be reckless.

Re:Pedestrian fatalities are rising in the US by vladvasiliu on Saturday July 31, 2021 @04:43AM (#28016489)
Was it just infrastructure, or did they also invest somehow in education? Maybe Paris could learn from La Rochelle and avoid what didn't work out.

My point is that people should really have this ingrained, and not put down the phone / not do stupid things just because there's a cop looking. Because as soon as the cop turns away / is on break, the bad behavior happens again. Also, being on the lookout for cops so that you can scroll your FB feed without getting fined only detracts from paying attention to the road.

Re:Pedestrian fatalities are rising in the US by cycomanic on Saturday July 31, 2021 @04:51AM (#28016509)
I'm in France visiting the in-laws right now and was actually surprised how bad the cycling infrastructure is compared to what I remembered. In particular around Paris. Also hardly anyone on the roads in the outer suburbs. If that is like that in most of France, no wonder that they haven't had a tour de France winner in 40 years (which really bothers the French) . If kids don't start riding early and use bikes as a mode of transport they will not get into it as a sport either.

Let's also not forget how incredibly empowering bikes are for kids, essentially they can get anywhere they want to if they can ride around on a bike.

About French drivers, I have the feeling that French drivers are very inconsiderate to every one not just bikes at least for urban traffic.

Re:Pedestrian fatalities are rising in the US by vladvasiliu on Saturday July 31, 2021 @05:50AM (#28016764)
> Let's also not forget how incredibly empowering bikes are for kids, essentially they can get anywhere they want to if they can ride around on a bike.

That's true on paper, but note that in the outer suburbs, towns are usually small and kids would have to ride quite long distances (>10 km) to get anywhere useful. And winters here can be rough. Add to that narrow streets and careless drivers, and I can totally understand why you don't see many kids cycling.

Re:Pedestrian fatalities are rising in the US by cycomanic on Saturday July 31, 2021 @06:48AM (#28016978)
Are you talking about the Paris suburbs? Sure towns are quite small but in a 10km radius there are still more people than in many other places in Europe and e.g. the city where I grew up and we all always road around on bikes. 10km was not a large distance for us after turning 10-12.

Regarding rough winters, I grew up in Germany and live in Sweden now, so saying winter in France is rough is quite funny (my French partner is laughing quite hard now)

Re:Pedestrian fatalities are rising in the US by vladvasiliu on Saturday July 31, 2021 @07:13AM (#28017081)
Right, I was talking about the parents' point of view. There are always rougher winters until you get to the north pole I guess, but that doesn't change the local people's perception. Also, do they leave the snow on the road, like in France, or do they clear it up? I've also heard Canadians (from Quebec) complain about the rough winters in Paris, so there's that.

I don't know where you grew up in Germany nor am I familiar with the country, but the places I've visited (in Baden-Württemberg, around Schwäbisch Hall mostly) had amazing bike infrastructure, with paved paths in very good shape and several meters away from car roads, separated by grass, dirt, etc. I can see why parents would have absolutely no problem letting the kids bike around these paths. Also, drivers seemed much less crazy than around Paris.

Re:Pedestrian fatalities are rising in the US by matthewfcarlson on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:20AM (#28018881)
I grew up in a smallish university town (USA) and have lots of fun memories biking around. It was three or four miles to downtown along a river with a trail through the woods most of the way there. Thinking back it was awesome to be able to go down to grocery store or the downtown when I was 12-16.
Re:Pedestrian fatalities are rising in the US by xmprt on Saturday July 31, 2021 @02:02AM (#28015689)
Until it becomes faster, cheaper, or more convenient to cycle than drive for most cases, people will continue driving.
Re:Pedestrian fatalities are rising in the US by ehnto on Saturday July 31, 2021 @02:41AM (#28015903)
Well it is definitely cheaper, but I would hazard a guess it's not always faster from the burbs. For me it is because I am a 30 minute ride and in car traffic it is 45m-1h. So it checks all the boxes you mentioned. But people still drive here. I think convenience is subjective too, since I find it convenient to not deal with car parking in the CBD and I don't find the cycling inconvenient, but others would consider the cycling inconvenient enough that an extra 15 minutes in the car doesn't worry them.
Re:Pedestrian fatalities are rising in the US by baliex on Saturday July 31, 2021 @02:59AM (#28016000)
It’s the convenience that’s missing.

The difference is not having to worry about the weather (too hot, too cold, wet) and even aside from that, carrying an extra set of clothes even in ideal conditions. And you’re obviously limited as to how much you can carry.

Speaking as someone who cycles as a hobby and for transport around the city (commuting and leisure).

Re:Pedestrian fatalities are rising in the US by midasuni on Saturday July 31, 2021 @02:58AM (#28015996)
In London it’s definitely faster cheaper and more convenient. Still hasn’t reached the critical mass.

He’ll in central london it’s faster to walk than get a bus, and buses he special lanes to bypass the traffic!

They should get ride of bus lanes and use the lane for bikes and escooters. Put buses in with the delivery vans.

Re:Pedestrian fatalities are rising in the US by cycomanic on Saturday July 31, 2021 @05:01AM (#28016552)
As a cyclist both for sport and commuting, I have to say shared paths with pedestrians are often more dangerous than riding on roads with moderate traffic. Pedestrians are usually completely unaware of their surroundings and just suddenly walk left/right without looking. And an accident with a pedestrian, while typically not as serious as an accident with a car still can result in serious injuries.

The countries that got cycling infrastructure right are the Dutch and Danish. Also Germany and Sweden are improving a lot with their infrastructure.

However, we also need to change attitudes and enforcement of rules toward cyclists. The problem is that often police and judges also only drive cars and walk, which leads to cases where cyclists are hit hard for infarctions, but drivers or pedestrians get a slap on the wrist even if their actions result in serious injury.