News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by shoto_io on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:45AM (#27969719)
How will the investors get their money back on this investment?
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by normaler on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:59AM (#27969813)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27906336

In this case for example Matrix has been choosen as the Protocol to be used to connect all manner of Healthcareproviders, Healthinsurances and State Entitys in the Health sector in the future.

This is a highly fractured environment where there is alot of distrust and animosity between all the parties.

I see this e.g. as an incredible chance to provide matrix related services even for small companies in germany.

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by robertwt7 on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @04:25AM (#27969977)
It’s really cool to see how people can foresee how to monetize these kind of startups whereas myself as a developer have been struggling to think the potential in the business side.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by rapsey on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @04:09AM (#27969870)
Meh that is a pretty terrible place to try and make money. The only thing worse may be trying to sell to schools.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by normaler on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @04:17AM (#27969911)
Try not to think about hospitals, but more about all the individual doctors offices that also need to be connect to this environment and don't have to to go through a EU wide bidding process.

E.g. there are more than thousand software solutions that are registered with the health insurance companies to manage patient data and billing processes.

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by the_duke on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @04:10AM (#27969878)
Element sells business plans. [1]

In addition, Matrix has been chosen for quite a few large deployments by governments, so there presumably are large-ish support contracts associated with those.

If that's enough to justify a 30 Million round is another question.

> there are no plans to use cryptocurrency incentives in Matrix or Element any time soon

Note the wording here... "any time soon" is quite different from "no plans, period".

[1] https://element.io/pricing

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by darthrupert on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @06:55AM (#27970935)
Slack's valuation in 2019 was over 20B. 30M ain't much.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by SahAssar on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @05:48PM (#27978077)
Why do you think Element is trying to optimize for short term valuations?
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by scrollaway on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:46AM (#27969732)
Matrix is a protocol. There's a lot of tooling and applications to be made around said protocol, plenty of which could be sold on on a license basis, support for enterprises etc.

Matrix has a fantastic B2B potential. It's just early.

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by raxxorrax on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @04:30AM (#27970015)
It should be mentioned that it also allows for distributed authentication providers (home servers). A very important feature and big tech strategy is not hiding this. But you can keep Google, Apple, Microsoft and similar completely out of the loop.

The name of the protocol is very badly chosen though.

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by scrollaway on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @05:14AM (#27970309)
Do you know if they have a mechanism for hosted servers with your own domain name yet? This feels like a big thing missing for wider enthusiast adoption.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by raxxorrax on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @07:05AM (#27971006)
To be honest, I am no expert on Matrix, but I thought you can just host your own server on your own domain. That was the base assumption for my comment and I hope that is correct. They have a server reference component (synapse) that you could host anywhere I think.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by scrollaway on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @08:33AM (#27971637)
Right but maybe you don't want to host your own server, but do want your own domain. Like emails.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by gary-kim on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @01:37PM (#27975206)
Element's primary paid service is Element Matrix Services [1] which is exactly for that. They run a Matrix server for you, optionally on a domain that you provide.

[1]: https://ems.element.io/

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by karmanyaahm on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @12:11PM (#27974125)
That's not possible yet, see this proposal

https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/neilalexander/...

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by cvwright on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @05:22PM (#27977836)
The proposal that you linked is all about portable identities, tied to public keys. Is that really necessary for Element to host a server on a user's domain?

I would have thought it would work just like outsourcing your web server or your email service. You generate a DNS name and point it at their IP address. Then they get a certificate and start serving traffic for your domain. Easy peasy.

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by karmanyaahm on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @12:10PM (#27974117)
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by curryst on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @10:41AM (#27973029)
Yeah, they've had that for a long time. I ran my own server on my own domain name a couple years ago or so.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by goodpoint on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @07:28AM (#27971143)
That does not answer the question.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by rvz on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @04:36AM (#27970064)
Exactly. The Matrix ecosystem is already used by governments in European countries and healthcare providers as well so that justifies the valuation of this fundraising round.

The enterprise potential for the Matrix ecosystem which includes Element is almost like what GitLab has done but for Git services and much more.

> The majority of the core team is now employed by Element, an independent company set up to hire the team and support Matrix's development. Other contributors are funded by their own employers or donate their own time to the project.

At least they are not fully reliant on donations and they have a solid way of making money.

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by hestefisk on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @08:35AM (#27971654)
Matrix / Element also run a private chat service for the French government to get their employees off Slack and WhatsApp for sensitive comms. I bet that has paid a decent support contract.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by factorialboy on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:46AM (#27969724)
Self-managed Slack / Teams alternative for enterprise users?
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by Tomte on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:47AM (#27969743)
I'd rather see Zulip adopted.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by factorialboy on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:49AM (#27969747)
That's fine, I'm just exploring monetization options, not making any claims of superiority.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by dijit on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @04:10AM (#27969872)
Seeing the Rust-lang zulip has absolutely ruined slack for me.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by sprash on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:50AM (#27969753)
They won't. Matrix is a meta data sponge hence it is heavily sponsored by the intelligence community. Truly descentralized and peer-to-peer solutions like Jami won't recieve such funding.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by yuchi on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:58AM (#27969809)
Interesting take. Do you have any reference to back these allegations up? (Honestly interested)
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by Arathorn on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @05:09AM (#27970279)
Matrix's architecture today means that the servers can see who their users are talking to, and when - but not what (assuming it's end-to-end encrypted). Just like a PGP mail service like Protonmail. Because Matrix stores conversation history on the server (unlike Signal) so you can get at it when from multiple logins, you end up with that metadata stored on the server.

We're fixing this by working on P2P Matrix (as per the blog post - it's one of the main initiatives that the funding is going towards). https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix explains how P2P addresses the metadata problem.

The whole "heavily sponsored by the intelligence community" thing is a conspiracy theory. It's true that Matrix is popular with government and national security folks and Element gets money from them... but it's because they want the E2EE and data sovereignty for themselves, rather than because they are trying to torment their citizens(!!)

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by logikblok on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @07:02AM (#27970983)
Congratulations on the raise and keep up the good work!
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by callahad on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @04:38AM (#27970076)
I work at Element. At first blush, https://serpentsec.1337.cx/matrix seems like a fair writeup of Matrix protocol metadata, with examples, by a third party.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by kevincox on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @09:59AM (#27972528)
My main problem is that many new features seem to leak more and more data. Encryption support is always "will be added later". For example if you want to send a sticker or any inline image you need to upload it to the server in plaintext. Topics and profiles are unencrypted even in "encrypted rooms". Matrix is a pain-text protocol with a couple of encrypted extensions on top. Even worse is that most clients will happily let you use these leaky features in encrypted rooms with no warnings.

I love Matrix, it is actually my primary chat network. But the way these features are getting added makes me really disappointed. You don't make a secure protocol by stuffing as many features as you can then adding encryption later. You build a secure protocol by making sure that every feature added is secure from the start, otherwise it is rejected or needs to explicitly justify why it can't or shouldn't be made secure.

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by easygenes on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @05:17AM (#27970328)
What's your take on this analysis? https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/matrix-vs-xmpp

It seems like the connection to Amdocs and their interest in collecting metadata for surveillance is a stain on the privacy-focused image.

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by olah_1 on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @09:33AM (#27972208)
It is interesting that the funding from them happened very early on, at the same time as the design of the protocol itself.

Now it is too late to rethink the design to be less of a honeypot. So the only solution is P2P matrix. But even P2P matrix will need some way to back up the metadata so it’s saved between sessions. So again the honeypot seems unavoidable.

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by Arathorn on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @02:10PM (#27975585)
that analysis seems to be a hatchet job in favour of XMPP, complete with a deeply unpleasant undertone of antisemitism...
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by easygenes on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @11:36PM (#27980005)
The author admits to using Matrix personally and concedes that it’s better than basically everything but XMPP. It seems his progress was from Matrix to XMPP after personal experience.

The tone of the part about connections to Israeli intelligence doesn’t read as “anti-Semitic” to me, as it’s pointed at motivations of the government spy apparatus and doesn’t make generalizations about Israeli or Jewish people. Though the tongue-in-cheek sarcasm is hard to untangle.

The overall tone is sadly that of someone who has spent too much time making internet memes, but I believe the author is a trained linguist with a sardonic sense of humor.

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by goodpoint on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @07:29AM (#27971153)
It's a simple fact: a distributed/p2p application that cannot be monetized does not generate revenue.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by the_duke on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @04:23AM (#27969959)
If you read the post, the very first work item they mention is

> finish building out P2P Matrix and get it live

ps: p2p is nice to have, but also comes with a lot of problems and and probably shouldn't be a first choice for many users.

Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by Arathorn on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @05:09AM (#27970282)
We're hoping to get it good enough so that it literally is the first choice for new users - and it's only if they consciously want to pin their data (and metadata) to a server that they'd do so.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by olah_1 on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @09:34AM (#27972221)
Who wouldn’t want their data pinned? That is the expected behavior of a chat app today. So to provide a “first choice” experience, they will need to do so. So, how does P2P solve the metadata sponge problem?
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by Arathorn on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @01:53PM (#27975415)
'Pinning your data on a server' basically means having a backup so that if you lose your phone or other logged in clients, you can still get at your account. Lots of people are happy to run without a cloud backup of their data - and in fact many orgs mandate that you don't back up data from your clients onto a server somewhere, given it makes it easier to steal.
Re:Element raises $30M to boost Matrix by tadfisher on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:47AM (#27969741)
They receive shares of the company's stock, which is a security that can be exchanged for other forms of value, including money.