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Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by ulfw on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:35AM (#27958616)
"A decent mostly free health system"

Where in Germany is that?

You either pay a lot for private insurance (especially when you get old) or you pay a lot for state-backed insurance (which is a lot if you earn above average as most techies do).

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by oezi on Monday July 26, 2021 @12:35PM (#27961542)
Since insurance is capped at around 5k salary you will at most pay 15% of that (750 EUR) for health insurance per month in the universal insurance system. If you make higher salaries then you won't be affected.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by rattray on Monday July 26, 2021 @02:16PM (#27963044)
Is that 750 EUR for an individual or a family? Sounds like a lot.

For comparison in California, a 35-year-old SF resident earning $250k/yr living alone purchasing insurance through the public marketplace can get a Platinum-level Kaiser Permanente HMO plan for around $650/mo (but over $2000/mo for a family of four).

YMMV but I've found KP's service quality to be extremely high, and that plan comes with $0 annual deductible and very low copays.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by domsom on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:01PM (#27963745)
It's 14.6 % of the gross income, capped around 58k income / year. Half of that (7.3 %) is paid by the employer, the other half by the employee (deducted from monthly wage payments).

For that, kids (no matter how many) are covered unless the other parent has a private insurance. Spouses are covered if they don't have their own insurance.

Based in Germany, I'd say the best part of it is that it's truly social: The healthy ones pay for the sick ones, all with the same tariff, no questions asked. That's especially true for people who become sick, old, or both: For them, private insurances tend to raise their tariffs exponentially, and there's no way to get an affordable insurance any longer.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by rattray on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:15PM (#27963987)
Ah, so more like 350€/yr, including all dependents, for an employed person. That is a much better deal than (self-employed) KP, assuming the quality is good!
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by wheels on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:53PM (#27964523)
No, nowhere closed to that. There seems to be some confusion because Americans tend to quote things in yearly rates, while Germans tend to quote things in monthly rates. I pay just over €10k/year for my public health insurance in Germany, which is the maximum rate. (I'm self-employed, so I pay the full rate.) But that covered my whole family (wife and two kids) when my wife wasn't working. Now that she's a full-time employee, she pays around half of that (because her employer pays the other half).
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by rattray on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:57PM (#27967008)
Ah, ok. Thanks for the more apples-to-apples comparison. Sounds like the high-end California equivalent would be around $25k/yr, more than twice as much for a high-income self-employed head of household.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by wheels on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @06:02AM (#27970618)
A couple other interesting points:

- You get that same coverage level at any income.

- There's no co-pay on anything (with some exceptions for higher-end elective dental work, e.g. if you want an implant instead of a bridge). What something costs is never a factor in treatment. The doctors simply decide what they think is appropriate.

- Prices, again, at the same coverage level, drop down to next to nothing if you have no income. I paid €1,400/year when I was living on savings and starting my company.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by rattray on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:54PM (#27966994)
350€/mo*
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by TMWNN on Monday July 26, 2021 @02:38PM (#27963395)
>YMMV but I've found KP's service quality to be extremely high

Multiple studies have shown that Kaiser is more efficient and effective than the UK NHS for about the same cost.

Examples:

* https://www.bmj.com/content/324/7330/135

* https://www.bmj.com/content/327/7426/1257

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by rattray on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:11PM (#27963919)
Fascinating! Thank you for sharing those 2002/2003 articles. For completeness, it looks like a 2004 rebuttal claims that this is due to a healthier population: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1266198/ but frankly that does confirm that relatively healthy, employed populations would prefer Kaiser to the NHS.
Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by pkaye on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:32PM (#27962355)
> Since insurance is capped at around 5k salary you will at most pay 15% of that (750 EUR) for health insurance per month in the universal insurance system.

Does the employer pay any of that? Is that the total for the entire family?

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by suction on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:02PM (#27963769)
Yes, it includes your spouse and any number of children up to the age of 26 I think. So the classical family model with a stay-home spouse and children will be covered by the breadwinner's health insurance.

If any family member works full-time, then they have to cover their own health insurance. Exceptions apply.

If you make more than 40.000 EUR / year you have the option to get a private insurance policy with more "benefits". Then, the employer will pay out the amount that went to the public health system and you will use it (and whatever you can afford on top) to your private health insurance.

When you go private, you're in the wild west, meaning you'll need to be extremely cautious of what contracts you sign. Or you'll end up with a 3000 EUR per month plan at old age, with no way back into the public system.

Many people end up poor after retirement because their whole 401k and savings go towards the health insurance which is way to luxurious for their needs and isn't capped.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by ulfw on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:27PM (#27967949)
Yes. Which ... I am sorry is not "free". We can argue about it being cheap or not cheap or whatever. Sure.

But I don't get why I got downvoted for pointing out that it's not free, when that's 100% true.

750EUR public (which doesn't cover everything) or depending on age anywhere from 400 to 1500EUR private isn't "free healthcare". That's on top of high taxes etc.

Germany has a lot of great things. Free healthcare ain't one of them. Let's stay honest.

Re:TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe c... by oezi on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @02:12AM (#27969192)
I don't think anybody says it would be free (what is free except air and love anyway?). But it is universal and also available if you are not working, are unemployed or retired. If you are not earning any money, then you still receive the same level of care.

You are right that it doesn't cover everything, but in my experience these are primarily things where there is a high level of own influence or electivness (dental implants, lasik, glasses) and or cost/benefit isn't proven. Since a basic level of care is provided I don't mind that.