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Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by atq2119 on Sunday July 25, 2021 @07:56AM (#27948489)
I've been reading about the Mill for many years now and was fascinated by many of their ideas. However, the more deeply I learn about the details of how CPUs and GPUs work, the more I'm convinced that we're not going to see the kind of paradigm shift that they're touting.

They have some cool ideas, but many are incompatible with existing software, e.g. all the memory protection stuff. Other ideas like how memory loads work could be integrated (and have been in place in GPUs for a long time, though not in CPUs) but still depend on compiler changes, which presumably they've done, but past experience with hardware projects that rely on compiler changes is that the compiler changes aren't performing well enough in practice. Or perhaps compilers improve so slowly that traditional architectures can easily absorb the ideas in time.

Another example is that Apple's M1 proves that wider frontends are possible in traditional architectures, as long as the instruction size is fixed. There's no particular reason to believe that the Mill would be inherently better at this than a traditional architecture.

If you have a lay person's interest in hardware architecture and haven't looked at their docs yet, do so. The ideas will likely tickle your brain in a good way -- they did for me. But don't expect much, if anything, from them in production.

Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by h0l0cube on Sunday July 25, 2021 @08:09AM (#27948578)
> past experience with hardware projects that rely on compiler changes is that the compiler changes aren't performing well enough in practice.

> Another example is that Apple's M1 proves that wider frontends are possible in traditional architectures, as long as the instruction size is fixed.

Doesn't the M1 prove that you can transpile code from one architecture to another and gain performance benefits? As in, Rosetta code works at comparable or better speed at far lower power consumption?

Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by sitkack on Sunday July 25, 2021 @08:24AM (#27948644)
Dynamic Binary Translation was shown effective back in the 90s

https://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/1999/HPL-1999-77.html

Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by tyingq on Sunday July 25, 2021 @11:29AM (#27949856)
Transmeta is another example.
Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by analognoise on Sunday July 25, 2021 @11:35AM (#27949908)
If I remember right, the thing that stopped people in their tracks was patents, not necessarily technology.
Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by jlokier on Sunday July 25, 2021 @12:19PM (#27950354)
Indeed, it may not be a coincidence that the M1 was released about the same time as Transmeta's patents expired.
Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by monocasa on Sunday July 25, 2021 @01:21PM (#27951031)
It wouldn't have been Transmeta's patents, but older ones. IBM's DAISY and HP's Dynamo stand out, but there are probably even older examples depending on what exactly is being patented.

The original Rosetta used the same underlying tech with the exception of the memory model stuff, but Transmeta never had to deal with that since they only handled single cores. (And Sparc shipped TSO/WMO switch from a control register all the way back in the mid 90s).

Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by sitkack on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:52AM (#27960105)
FX!32 predates Rosetta. I don't think Transmeta's patents stopped any innovation here. I think it has more to do with technical difficult and social and political issues within an org. The fact that Apple has pulled off an ISA change multiple times is quit e amazing.

Programmer's got cut off from the microcode starting in the 80s, had this not been the case, I think we would have seen more activity lower in the stack.

ISA lockin is a much smaller issue now.

DAISY https://www.microarch.org/micro33/tutorial/tutorial.html

FX!32 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.23.2...

Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by analognoise on Monday July 26, 2021 @02:31PM (#27963296)
You can still write microcode! You just have to design the whole processor yourself.

I've recently been studying AM2900 (bit-slice) processor design. There are still people out there putting microcoded systems together on FPGAs!

I am investigating it, because I think there might be some useful design aspects that could be re-used, but mostly out of retro computing interest :)

Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by sitkack on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:48PM (#27968086)
Yeah, the AM2900 series is fascinating, the devices themselves are totally unavailable, which is fine, fpgas are cheap and ubiquitous. It would be a great project to reimplment the parts in an HDL!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Am2900#Members_of_the_Am29...

There are two other branches of system design which are really interesting

    * CGRAs, Course Grain Reconfigurable Architecture [1]
    * FPGA Overlays [2]
[1] https://cgra-me.ece.utoronto.ca/

[2] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/6239797 https://www.seekdl.org/conferences/paper/details/9227 https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/An-efficient-FPGA-over...

Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by magicalhippo on Sunday July 25, 2021 @09:04AM (#27948885)
While I'm also feel a mix of enthusiasm and skepticism, I feel it would be a shame for the Mill team not to have a proper shot at getting to hardware.

To see if it, against the odds, can provide some significant benefit or not. The proof is in the pudding, I hope they get to make the pudding.

Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by bcrl on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @09:16PM (#27979403)
A poor hardware implementation would do more harm for their prospects than no hardware implementation.
Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by thesz on Sunday July 25, 2021 @04:46PM (#27952779)
The very RISC paradigm relied on compiler change.

The change happened, but not as fast as we would like it to.

Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by calmd on Sunday July 25, 2021 @10:29AM (#27949418)
Their ideas will become more widespread but it may be done by a different team at this point.
Re:On the lack of progress reports from the Mill project by monocasa on Sunday July 25, 2021 @01:36PM (#27951188)
Not for 17 years since their patents go up to 2018.