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Re:Amazon Echo Dot does not wipe personal content after fact... by flavius29663 on Saturday July 24, 2021 @09:42PM (#27945922)
what if you just fill the whole disk with random bytes? Wouldn't that take care of it ?
Re:Amazon Echo Dot does not wipe personal content after fact... by infogulch on Saturday July 24, 2021 @10:54PM (#27946307)
You don't have access to "the whole disk". What the drive presents to the OS as an array of blocks is just an abstraction now. There are at least 3 commonly known ways that "filling" the disk with random bytes could fail to destroy the original data:

* If any part of a block is found to be corrupted for any reason, the block is transparently set aside and never used again, but its contents may still be present to read for someone that is willing to bypass the drive's firmware.

* To prevent uneven wear, ssd capacity is over provisioned which means it has more cells than what it tells the OS. In general, when you "overwrite" a block on your drive, that data likely does not actually overwrite the cell where the data used to be. The drive picks some other unused cell, writes the data there, and does some bookkeeping so it knows that this new cell is what the OS means when it asks for that block again. When the OS "fills the disk" it may not end up overwriting some of those cells due to the firmware's arbitrary wear leveling algorithm.

* Many drives have a local write buffer that uses different, faster persistent storage to temporarily save writes to the drive as it takes its time to write out cells. This is to prevent data loss in the case of a power outage. In case the drive hadn't fully written all the blocks to the main storage when it boots back up again, it finds the data in the write buffer and finishes the job. The write buffer has both of the previous issues except its even more arbitrary and depends on load profile which your random filling routine is not guaranteed to hit.

There is no such thing as securely overwriting blocks anymore, because "blocks" are a fiction presented to your OS by the drive's firmware. There is only one way to be sure the data on the drive is filled with random data: make it random to begin with, and ensure that it stays random by destroying the decryption key.

Re:Amazon Echo Dot does not wipe personal content after fact... by dylan604 on Saturday July 24, 2021 @11:23PM (#27946433)
>* If any part of a block is found to be corrupted for any reason, the block is transparently set aside and never used again, but its contents may still be present to read for someone that is willing to bypass the drive's firmware.

How useful is one block of recovered data?

Re:Amazon Echo Dot does not wipe personal content after fact... by KMnO4 on Saturday July 24, 2021 @11:33PM (#27946477)
Blocks can be up to 4mb. You could store all your passwords, private keys, contact/identity info, etc
Re:Amazon Echo Dot does not wipe personal content after fact... by dylan604 on Sunday July 25, 2021 @02:13AM (#27947131)
Really now. Last time I cared to look at any of this, it was all 4K blocks.
Re:Amazon Echo Dot does not wipe personal content after fact... by aaronmdjones on Sunday July 25, 2021 @02:36AM (#27947230)
You are confusing physical blocks (i.e. flash memory) with logical blocks (i.e. filesystems).

Edit: HDDs typically have 4K blocks though ("advanced-format drives"), but we're not talking about HDDs.

Re:Amazon Echo Dot does not wipe personal content after fact... by dylan604 on Sunday July 25, 2021 @02:50AM (#27947303)
Yeah, I honestly have not cared about how hard drives work in about 10 years since I built my last array. I have better things to do with my life than worry about this stuff. I just want to connect a drive, reformat/partition if necessary, and then go back to work. A single SSD now read/writes faster than a 16 drive array (got close in RAID0, but that's just dumb). Now, if SSDs could just get a decent volume size.
Re:Amazon Echo Dot does not wipe personal content after fact... by BenjiWiebe on Sunday July 25, 2021 @10:45AM (#27949517)
They've got what I consider decent size, it's just that the price can be a bit steep compared to an HDD, at least at quantities of 1. $700 will get you an 8TB SSD.
Re:Amazon Echo Dot does not wipe personal content after fact... by dylan604 on Sunday July 25, 2021 @11:00AM (#27949626)
8TB at blazing speeds to boot in a single device. To get decent speeds from HDD would require at least 8 drives striped together. So not only do you need 8+ HDD drives, you also need the enclosure. That would easily double the $700 for the single SSD. Luckily, with USBC/TB4, these enclosures come with the controllers built-in instead of requiring PCIe board
Re:Amazon Echo Dot does not wipe personal content after fact... by thelopa on Saturday July 24, 2021 @09:50PM (#27945964)
There could be bits of plain text data left over in over-provisioned storage set up in case a block goes bad (e.g. a flash cell that can no longer erase).
Re:Amazon Echo Dot does not wipe personal content after fact... by flavius29663 on Saturday July 24, 2021 @10:40PM (#27946229)
Would that extra cell be used unless there is a need for it? If there is a need for it, then I assume it will be a need for it when you fill the drive too.

But yeah, it depends on the manufacturer of the drive, so you don't want to take the chance, Full encryption is unbeatable.

Re:Amazon Echo Dot does not wipe personal content after fact... by dan000892 on Saturday July 24, 2021 @11:15PM (#27946408)
Flash devices maximize the longevity of the cells by wear leveling. The on-board controller maintains a map between the physical cell layout and the logical layout that's changing with every single write operation.

Extra cells are used both reactively and proactively.

Reactively: Error when erasing or write/verifying a cell? Copy contents to spare cell, flag old cell as bad, update the map, maybe complain if running low on spare cells but otherwise call it a day.

Proactively: Cells are only rated for so many erase operations which directly informs the longevity (total bytes written) of a drive. MLC cells can be written to 3,000 times and SLC 20,000 but the latter is much more expensive. For use cases where greater longevity is required (without spending SLC money), why not put a disk together that has twice as many cells as it needs and wear level across all of them? If you `dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdX bs=64k status=progress` your 32GB drive and it'll complete after 32GB but you have no way of knowing how many more cells that drive has that you didn't touch.

(Also as one of the parents pointed out, disk controllers are getting smart. You don't know if it was transparently compressing data too causing you to touch even fewer cells. ATA Secure Erase is the way to go.)