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Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by ttul on Saturday July 24, 2021 @10:27AM (#27941207)
Norway is perhaps the best run petro state in the history of the world. To avoid Dutch Disease, whereby an economy becomes dependent on a particular commodity, Norway long ago decided to invest its considerable oil wealth in assets located outside of Norway, building a massive sovereign wealth fund that will provide income to Norwegians long after the oil is all gone.

Compare this situation to Nigeria, whose similarly massive oil wealth is corruptly consumed and distributed within Nigeria, leading to massive disparities in wealth and no long term savings to provide for its citizens.

Someone has to produce oil and gas. It might as well be the Norwegians.

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by elcdodedocle on Saturday July 24, 2021 @03:05PM (#27943593)
This. If only every other country with oil managed their wealth with such good intentions and for the common good the whole world would most certainly be way far ahead in getting rid of much of our dependency on it. So no, I do not think that selling oil to oil dependent countries is the same as selling opium. They have the same knowledge, means and even more motivation (no freaking oil) to get their shite together and follow the same conversion Norway has been undergoing for almost half a century now. What, do you think their fight is that they just grew a conscience yesterday and decided to replace all their petrodollars with Teslas? They freaking groomed generations of environmentally conscious citizens with all around free access to the best education to become great scientists and engineers to fight off this dependency. In and out of their country. They imported some of our best research scientists which were struggling to make a living out of their work and did not even care about it (At least until they reached their mid 30s and tried to start a family). They now own and live in literally million dollar mansions because their research efforts paid off by a country acknowledging their value. As they should. They were even able to monetize this fight for the environment, making good bucks from it. The fight for our freaking oxygen and clean water. Which shouldn't need any monetary incentive by the way, in case that is not obvious enough. In my mind they are the best kind of society you can get nowadays. I do appreciate the point of view comparing them with freaking vicious enslaving East India trading company and I am sure there is people with that mentality in their numbers but... Bitch, please.
Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by sydd on Saturday July 24, 2021 @11:26AM (#27941720)
> Compare this situation to Nigeria

Not really comparable. Nigeria is in this case more like China during the opium wars - the western companies are taking away their oil from them with bribery, political and economic threats. Just read a bit about how Shell operates there, they have more power than the government.

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by mistrial9 on Saturday July 24, 2021 @12:00PM (#27941996)
I read the non-fiction book "The Taking of Getty Oil" about a 1970s series of oil company mergers and acquisitions, and the length that the oil negotiators go to, to include and pay (bribe?) the national leaders is obvious over and over.. The USA and its oil market partners like Shell had been bitten by overseas power dynamics multiple times, and they specifically evolved strategy post-British Colonialism ..

There is so much reward for the winners in these exchanges, that yes they do try different commercial arrangements to make it stick; and that changes over time.

As an American schoolchild we studied Nigeria as a success story and a hopeful future for Americans who wanted a modern stable country in Africa. From what I can tell in passing, the reality is repeatedly short of the lofty goals set long ago. It might be said that there is some responsibility for the sad state of affairs there, with the people who are local and governing, not just the terrible hands of America or Dutch-Royal Shell, right?

-- from the wikipedia EN page on Nigeria:

Ethnocentrism, tribalism, religious persecution, and prebendalism have plagued Nigerian politics both prior and subsequent to independence in 1960. All major parties have practised vote-rigging and other means of coercion to remain competitive.

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by bilbo0s on Saturday July 24, 2021 @11:59AM (#27941978)
I was just going to comment that Nigeria's wealth is not so much "distributed within Nigeria" as it is expropriated by the Nigerian élites and given to their Western partners. And bribery is fundamental to that process.

That said, it's not only the Westerners screwing over Nigeria. It's also their own rich people screwing them over to get more rich. Nigerian leaders are afraid to go the China route on stamping out corruption because, unlike in China, in Nigeria you can kill the leaders and get new ones.

It's a complex problem, and since Nigeria is the African superpower, there is little that anyone can do about it.

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by lostlogin on Saturday July 24, 2021 @04:10PM (#27944054)
> since Nigeria is the African superpower, there is little that anyone can do about it.

There is little anyone in Africa can do. Other countries can do plenty, but after the nation building demonstrated in Iraq and Afghanistan by the western powers, belief in their prowess must surely be non-existent. So much damage has been done with those fiascos.

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by FredPret on Saturday July 24, 2021 @11:53AM (#27941928)
This seems to be the fault of the Nigerian government no?

Shell is going to push its luck as far as it can with every country

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by lostlogin on Saturday July 24, 2021 @04:21PM (#27944138)
This may be an acceptable attitude to some, but it is a shamefully craven way to make money.

Have a read of the Wikipedia entry for Shell Nigeria. The death and destruction they are involved in (and which the acknowledgment involvement in) is horrendous. Armed conflict has broken out numerous times and Shell has backed some of it by their own acknowledgment.

The ecological and human toll from their polluting is incredible and their own reports show they aren’t attending some spills for significant portions of a year, quite apart from attempting to clean them up.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Nigeria

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by FredPret on Saturday July 24, 2021 @04:49PM (#27944354)
…no, it’s shamefully craven behaviour by the woeful Nigerian government who couldn’t be bothered to act in their citizens’ best interest in even the most basic ways.

Shell is a corporation like any other and will not hold itself to moral standards unless forced to by other entities.

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by klyrs on Saturday July 24, 2021 @01:37PM (#27942876)
No, bribing foreign governments is illegal, and also immoral.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Ac...

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by boardwaalk on Saturday July 24, 2021 @02:41PM (#27943435)
Shell is not a US company and besides, relying on another country’s laws keep yourself from being exploited isn’t going to get you very far.
Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by maeron22 on Saturday July 24, 2021 @04:07PM (#27944028)
Royal Dutch Shell is headquartered in the Netherlands and registered in the UK, and both countries are part of the OECD Anti-Bribery Convention that criminalizes the bribery of foreign public officials.

Even if it were not, I struggle to understand the purpose of your comment.

Do you mean to say that it's morally justified for Shell to bribe Nigerian officials? Because it goes unpunished by governments? Or because the citizenry of Nigeria that do not benefit from such bribery are unable to punish such transgressions? Or is it just a nitpicky "gotcha" that adds nothing and isn't even correct?

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by ALittleLight on Saturday July 24, 2021 @02:38PM (#27943413)
Receiving bribes is too, right? The fault may be shared between corrupt countries and companies, but Nigeria is not blameless.
Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by mikeblackson on Saturday July 24, 2021 @04:25PM (#27944175)
Both are to blame but there is a long history of the "blame free" variety of African leaders getting assassinated or "regime changed" by external forces if they don't cooperate.

I wonder how Norway would look if they were constantly under the same threat.

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by ALittleLight on Saturday July 24, 2021 @04:52PM (#27944374)
Good question. Why isn't Norway under the same threat?
Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by naruvimama on Monday July 26, 2021 @10:35AM (#27959869)
People wrongly assume that colonisation effectively ended after the 2nd world wars.

The truth is it is difficult to wean away governments & companies used to milking the colonies dry to give up so easily. Not to mention the many institutions including religious & media designed to aid this exploitation.

As much as the blame might be place on Nigeria, it is not to be ignored that a lot of power and influence is still held by the English speaking elite who are inturn in the grips of the colonial institutions and their masters.

In my own country of India, any attempt to decolonise is labeled "right wing nationalist".

None of us were happy to wear a tie to school when the temperature goes upto 45 degrees, this colonial brainwashing has to go for the people to become really free.

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by ridiculous_leke on Saturday July 24, 2021 @12:29PM (#27942263)
> the western companies are taking away their oil from them with bribery, political and economic threats

Opium wars were a clear blackmail. In this case, corrupt Nigerians are in league with corrupt companies. Not sure if both situations are comparable.

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by swang75 on Sunday July 25, 2021 @07:05AM (#27948278)
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Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by zohch on Saturday July 24, 2021 @03:50PM (#27943888)
> Nigeria is in this case more like China during the opium wars - the western companies are taking away their oil from them with bribery, political and economic threats.

What western company is using what political and economic threat? I think if we are specific about this we can work together to bring accountability to it.

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by karencarits on Saturday July 24, 2021 @12:41PM (#27942354)
There is a live counter showing the approximate value of the fund: https://www.nbim.no/en/

"On average, the fund holds 1.4 percent of all of the world’s listed companies."

At the moment, NOK 12 121 718 452 052,- or about $1 368 155 330 418,05

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by kingkawn on Saturday July 24, 2021 @10:55AM (#27941453)
To accurately compare Norway and Nigeria would require broadening the scope of the history you're providing.
Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by f6v on Saturday July 24, 2021 @11:40AM (#27941821)
Is per-capita data on oil income available for both Nigeria and Norway?
Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by karencarits on Saturday July 24, 2021 @12:52PM (#27942459)
In Norway for 2021, the oil sector accounts for about 14% of the state's total income (154 billion/milliard NOK) [1]. That's about $3500 per capita

For Nigeria 2018, it seems to be about $160 (USD 32.6 billion [2], 201 million people)

[1] https://www.norskpetroleum.no/okonomi/statens-inntekter/ [2] https://eiti.org/es/implementing_country/32

Re:Is Norway the New East India Company? by paulddraper on Saturday July 24, 2021 @10:38AM (#27941295)
> Someone has to produce oil and gas. It might as well be...

Drill baby drill