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Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by jjoonathan on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:02PM (#27897787)
It isn't just Windows 10, as far as I know every version of windows has always wanted to spend like a minute (or multiple minutes!) slowly counting the files before it proceeds to slowly delete them one by one... until it finds one that's open in a background process and nixes the whole operation in a half complete state. 5 times slower sounds conservative. It's awful.

Hey, maybe they could put rounded corners on the file deletion window, I bet that would fix it!

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by mikestew on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:12PM (#27897919)
The only reason I'm posting on HN right now is because I dared to right-click a folder on a network share. MyFolderName (not responding), whelp, guess I'll go fuck off for 60 seconds while every item in that shortcut menu opens a network connection, navigates to...or whatever the hell it's doing. Yeah, I know, use the CLI. OTOH, I argue: fix your broken UI.

I worked at MSFT for eight years as a full-time, Flavorade-guzzling employee, and fifteen years later rarely a day goes by that I don't question how Microsoft manages to get anyone to buy that steaming pile they call an operating system.

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by williamvds on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:39PM (#27898266)
Most people don't buy Windows - it just comes with their computer, thanks to Microsoft's deals with OEMs.

Kids get accustomed to Windows and Microsoft Office in schools thanks to Microsoft's lobbying, so when they grow up they keep using Windows and pay for Office.

Everyone uses Windows and Microsoft Office, so most companies and organizations have to pay for licenses for each of their employees.

People know Windows, so they develop on Windows, so they get locked into yet more Microsoft products and libraries and have to run Windows on servers. That's yet more licenses for a Windows and for Visual Studio.

Their business strategy would almost be impressive if it weren't terrifyingly harmful.

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by gavinray on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:48PM (#27898379)
Windows as an OS is... not the best. I miss Ubuntu/Pop!_OS. Switched due to MIDI controller driver compatibility issues that seemed immune to any WINE hackery =/

I actually really like the rest of what Microsoft does though.

VS Code, TypeScript, creating the Language Server Protocol, the .NET Foundation/.NET in general and C#, the list goes on and on. They're an impactful organization which (depending on what kind of software you build/what you write) probably has a significant impact on your day-to-day experience as a developer.

The benefits of vertical integration can have when you (for lack of a better word) "own" these things can be beneficial for the end-user/developer, ignoring whatever kind of anti-competitive arguments there are.

It's the same argument I hear from Apple users -- Apple stewards their digital experience and gives them continuity end-to-end.

Microsoft -- by nature of owning my OS, IDE, the specification and dev team driving my primary language, a cloud provider, and having their fingers in all of these parts of my digital life -- has the ability to be really awesome for me.

They could also do really sinister things if they wanted and I'd be real fucked I suppose, but that's a(n unlikely) risk I accept.

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by chungy on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:21PM (#27898011)
> rarely a day goes by that I don't question how Microsoft manages to get anyone to buy that steaming pile they call an operating system.

"But muh games!"

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by notriddle on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:30PM (#27899631)
Yeah, this but unironically.

The Windows filesystem has dismal performance. The Windows graphics stack is arguably better than Linux’s. And it’s not just the drivers, so you can’t just blame it on GPU vendors, though poor support from a certain popular GPU vendor definitely doesn’t help.

Some of it is just the little things, like doing mouse movement at very high priority in kernel space [1] [2]. Other parts are bigger and more impressive, like allowing the graphics driver to crash/upgrade/restart without you also losing all of your open windows.

[1]: https://reactos.org/wiki/Techwiki:Win32k/desktops#win32k.21P...

[2]: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20061117-03/?p=28...

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by puzzlingcaptcha on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:49PM (#27898381)
Yeah, 'cause the incredible fragmentation of Linux GUI toolkits and windowing systems is so fun to deal with. Year of Linux on the Desktop when.
Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by blooalien on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:47PM (#27899103)
> Year of Linux on the Desktop when.

Couple decades ago for me.

> Yeah, 'cause the incredible fragmentation of Linux GUI toolkits and windowing systems is so fun to deal with.

Sounds like probably "never" for you. You seem hostile toward Linux, so you're probably better off sticking with whatever you use currently.

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by gnubison on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:34PM (#27902067)
I don’t think calling GP “hostile to Linux” after they critiqued one part of the ecosystem is very fair. All systems have their flaws, and if judging part of a system negatively makes you hostile to that system, then I guess Linus Torvalds is hostile to Linux too.
Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by blooalien on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:19AM (#27902919)
I no longer care. None of it matters one little bit anyhow.
Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by chungy on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:25PM (#27898834)
Just take a look at the Windows desktop versus Linux desktop. The Windows desktop is far more fragmented and discongruous.

With Linux, the main difference is whether your desktop is primarily Qt or GTK. Sometimes an app using the other toolkit will look kind of funny, but most of those differences are paved over by any competent distro (eg: Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu, OpenSUSE...).

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by motogpjimbo on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:56PM (#27899203)
There are two windowing systems on Linux - the old one and the new one.

GUI toolkits are irrelevant to games.

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by gameswithgo on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:29PM (#27898129)
yeah maybe instead of making fun of that major industry other operating systems should treat it as an opportunity to gain market share.
Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by pfraze on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:10PM (#27898641)
SteamDeck is particularly interesting because of how much it is tackling that industry head-on. From the perspective of a mobile gaming console, the fact that it’s a PC is awesome. From the perspective of advancing gaming on Linux, it’s even more exciting
Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by vagrantJin on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:56PM (#27898472)
> rarely a day goes by that I don't question how Microsoft manages to get anyone to buy that steaming pile they call an operating system.

Haha. Maybe because it works? I do miss XP though. It felt like the only OS that can work as well on a PC and a Tank.

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by xxs on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:21PM (#27898020)
This has very little to do with Windows, itself. The issue is explorer that tries to estimate sizes and put the files in the recycled bin. Also likely it checks all the permissions while counting.

Try the command line: "rmdir /s" and it's quick.

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by mackwell on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:33PM (#27898194)
I think for the purpose of this discussion, explorer IS Windows. It is the UI that we all wish didn’t have these issues. I like using the command line / powershell when I’m on Windows for large file operations, but sometimes I still go to drag files around out of habit and quickly remember I have made a huge mistake as everything grinds to a halt / takes forever. On Linux and MacOS GUI file operations most of the time seem like they are just a visual way to call the same operations you’d be using on the command line.
Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by xxs on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:52PM (#27898415)
My habit is shift+del for windows; but most of the time I use cygwin anyways.

>I think for the purpose of this discussion, explorer IS Windows.

The article is about the file system, not the UI.

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by GordonS on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:55PM (#27898446)
This is true, but I don't understand why Explorer has been plagued with performance issues (and some of those intermittent; I presume based on network status) since forever.

I'm actually a big fan of Windows on the desktop, and as long as I avoid Explorer, I have no issues at all with file system performance while I'm developing, working from the command line, VS Code and Rider, and working with containers and WSL - all works great. But Explorer is such a central component of Windows that it affects pretty all users. I genuinely don't understand how it can be so rubbish ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by qwertox on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:08PM (#27898618)
Sometimes it's some .dll extensions which get loaded into explorer.exe which cause these problems.

I once had a PDF file on the desktop and for some reason this file was causing explorer.exe to freeze under certain circumstances. It's all a big mistery.

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by blooalien on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:52PM (#27899159)
> It's all a big mistery.

Such is the nature of closed source black box software.

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by m9731526 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @12:26AM (#27902318)
So true, I really have to say Explorer sucks. Recently I've been bothered by an issue that it tries to fully read every ts file, like maybe it's trying to read a Typescript file, but in my recent cases they are usually streamed video files of several GBs... It just never gives up and use my disk usage at 100%, I just have to kill explorer.exe everytime. I even tried messing with Registry about ts file but that's no good.

And even its Item Handler system is flawed. Still about .ts, it could stutter when I open context menu on ts files, then freeze forever if I hover over just 1 bit on "Open with" menu.

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by jjoonathan on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:18PM (#27898753)
What about refusing to delete files that some process has open in a dangling descriptor? Is that just a GUI thing? I'm pretty sure it isn't.

Also, is there a better way to hunt down the background process than sysinternals? It seems pretty ridiculous that a low level debugging tool is required to do something as modest as reliably move and delete files, but I never heard of a better workaround.

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by poisonborz on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:36PM (#27898958)
LockHunter is a nice right-click utility for this
Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by blooalien on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:50PM (#27899137)
You just outed yourself as a "power user". ;)
Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by xxs on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:29PM (#27900147)
>What about refusing to delete files that some process has open in a dangling descriptor?

This is how it is on Windows. Linux handles open file deletion a lot better.

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by tyingq on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:09PM (#27897883)
I think that's warts in the file explorer more so than warts in the system itself.
Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by logifail on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:39PM (#27898261)
> warts in the file explorer more so than warts in the system itself

I'm struggling to understand why one shouldn't treat the behaviour of explorer.exe as simply part of the Windows system.

Are there third-party explorer.exe alternatives available?

If so, during Windows install, where do I click to _not_ install the MSFT explorer.exe and instead select one of the better alternatives?

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by tyingq on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:00PM (#27898513)
I'm not excusing it, I'm just saying where the performance issue is. Filesystem ops are reasonably fast if you use the command line, do it programmatically, etc. With the caveat that Windows Defender can slow things down.
Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by edoceo on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:45PM (#27898339)
The last time I really used Windows (Win2k) there were alternative WinShell options.

You'd set a regkey to your program. There used to be a 3.1 style Program Manager - I miss that one

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by jjoonathan on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:12PM (#27898670)
Is "you can't delete a file if anything has it open" an explorer thing? I thought that was an OS thing.
Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by tyingq on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:52PM (#27899857)
That's an OS thing, but "wait forever while it grinds, finds one of those, and bails half finished" isn't.
Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by anigbrowl on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:53PM (#27898434)
I think it's file manager in particular. When I need to do something muscular I open a DOS box and just do it at the command line. It feels plenty zippy though I haven't bothered to do any benchmarks; I have to confess I've never learned Powershell because it's so easy to get most things done with command.com.

Although Windows remains my favorite environment I share the annoyance at how MS really polishes some things while failing on basic functionality, when they definitely have the resources and skills to fix that. Every time my wifi or WAN hiccups I wonder why Windows still lacks decent network history/QOS tools out of the box.

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by mickotron on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:17PM (#27899478)
Yep, "dir /s /b | findstr x" is way quicker than searching for files in explorer.
Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by qwertox on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:06PM (#27898584)
Oh man... Deleting a folder with a million files, or even only 100.000 is painful in Windows. You need to use the command line in order to sanely delete such folders.
Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by metalliqaz on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:07PM (#27897862)
it does that for the UI

For power users, you're much better off using the command line tools

Re:SQLite is 35% Faster Than The Filesystem (2017) by jjoonathan on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:00PM (#27898516)
I have a different power user workaround: I don't use Windows if I can at all avoid it.

EDIT: Does the CLI override the "open in background" check? Or do you still need Mark Russinovich sysinternals to reliably perform elementary file system administration tasks in Windows?