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Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by dsiegel2275 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @02:04PM (#27897075)
I agree. Likely a quick checkmate in court.
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by wiz21c on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @02:09PM (#27897138)
Stockfish has an opportunity to make money here. No?
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by elmo2you on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:11PM (#27897909)
I'm definitely not a lawyer/expert on this, even less about Germany specifically, but isn't actual financial damage required for financial compensation? While Stockfish might have suffered damage from ChessBase's behavior, if it can't be clearly specified as monetary damage, I don't really see how they could make money from this.

On the other hand, if ChessBase is found (and ruled) to have distributed software illegally, the company and its executives might have another problem. I don't know the specifics of German law, but I believe that distributing software (or any product) illegally is actually a criminal offense (no longer a civil dispute). That could (theoretically/eventually) lead to criminal prosecution and who knows .. jail time?

Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by gpm on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @08:49PM (#27901040)
Not a lawyer, but I think there's a weak argument for actual financial damages here.

There was only one legal way for ChessBase to do what it did (rebrand stockfish without attribution), and that was to acquire a (non-gpl) license from all the stockfish developers. That was almost certainly possible, for enough money. Stockfish developers could arguably sue for those lost licensing fees.

Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by adrianba on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:33PM (#27898181)
I don't know about German law specifically, but damages can be shown in a variety of ways. In the US, courts have recognized publishers of open-source software as receiving value from having made source code available at no charge, such as reputational gain or adoption leading to future sales of related products or services.
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by chippiewill on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:55PM (#27899198)
Additionally the possibility to relicense the software to the offender under commercial terms and gain direct monetary value.

Presumably it's important to establish damages (at least in a US jurisdiction) because otherwise they wouldn't have standing to bring a lawsuit.

Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by pabs3 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @07:57PM (#27900721)
I would suggest that they could ask for an injunction as well as restitutionary/disgorgement damages (give back their ill-gotten gains) and possibly punitive damages (to discourage others from violating the GPL).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damages#Punitive_damages_(non-...

Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by lmm on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:32AM (#27903386)
> I'm definitely not a lawyer/expert on this, even less about Germany specifically, but isn't actual financial damage required for financial compensation? While Stockfish might have suffered damage from ChessBase's behavior, if it can't be clearly specified as monetary damage, I don't really see how they could make money from this.

In the US there are statutory damages for copyright infringement ($50k per act of infringement, tripled if wilful) so you're entitled to that much without having to prove any actual damages.

Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by jeremyjh on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:18PM (#27897977)
Step 1. Hire an expensive attorney. Step 2. Sue to recover attorney fees.
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by germanier on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:50PM (#27898397)
In German court proceedings you can only recover attorney fees up to the (pretty low) legal fee schedule (RVG). Anything above that you will have to pay yourselves
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by mananaysiempre on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:15PM (#27899443)
GP’s joke, I suspect, was that in practice every bit of money they get from the lawsuit, whether it is labeled “attorney fees” or not, is likely to go towards compensating the legal team, and not to the actual injured party. Which does not contradict your statement.

(Part of the point of having a legal fee schedule is, I suppose, to put a damper on the prices of legal help, because, like in medicine, the demand is otherwise extremely inelastic: when you need it, you really need it. That does not appear to work. I wonder if there is an approach that would work.)

Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by groby_b on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:46PM (#27899805)
The German legal system does put somewhat of a damper on "every bit of money". First, it can only be charged as attorney fees, and if it exceeds the legal schedule, it needs to be very clearly called out as an attorney fee agreement. So "or not" is off the table.

Secondly, there is a morality clause with regards to attorney fees, so usurious rates like some US attorneys charge are harder to achieve.

This doesn't mean German attorneys are cheap. It's just not quite as out of control as the US legal system. (Though attorney's professional bodies are obviously lobbying to make it easier to charge more)

The legal fee schedule does put a damper on attorney work, and more importantly, makes it somewhat easier to predict costs should you need an attorney. If it's enough of a damper is open to interpretation. I

Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by mmcdermott on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:08PM (#27899981)
The short answer would be to make legal representation less valuable. Ensure that all cases (civil, criminal or otherwise) are tried and concluded quickly including appeals and streamline the law so that there is a lot less maneuverability. Lawyers wouldn't vanish (having someone knowledgeable and with proper negotiating distance will always be valuable), but they would lose a lot of leverage.

Of course, if there's one thing that lawyers are less likely to do than cap the earnings of their profession, it's to devalue it entirely.

You could also increase supply by reducing the level of qualification needed to become a lawyer. Increased competition would drive prices down. That too is highly unlikely.

Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by cycomanic on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:05AM (#27903186)
Note that Germany generally has a loser pays system (there are some caveats), so this will definitely not be true, because they can recover the legal costs from Chessbase.
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by Xylakant on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:54AM (#27903551)
(Simplifying:) Fees are set by law and derived from the value/damages they’re suing over (Streitwert). The winner can recover the costs up to that fee. However, attorneys can charge more, that difference is on the party that hired the attorney.
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by thaumasiotes on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:17PM (#27901971)
I think the joke is just that awarding "attorney fees" sets up a perverse incentive, much like "cost plus" pricing agreements. It's a bad idea.
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by mjthompson on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @07:48PM (#27900661)
Costs are compensatory in nature, not punitive. This is a risky gambit, pardon the pun.

Also, in Australia, you'll only recover a portion in accordance with scale limits (party-party costs). Indemnity costs (100% recovery) is rarely awarded. What's the case in the US?

Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by freejazz on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @07:07PM (#27900418)
In the US, copyright litigants can be entitled to attorney's fees and costs
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by alexfromapex on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @02:45PM (#27897578)
It will be interesting, depends where jurisdiction falls and how that jurisdiction interprets any alleged damages since GPL content is normally released free of charge.
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by indymike on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:05PM (#27897828)
Copyright infringement can have large statutory damages that have nothing to do with the actual financial damage from the infringement.
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by tzs on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @07:10PM (#27900431)
Germany does not appear to have statutory damages the way the US does, but they have something else that could work here. They seem to have three kinds of damages possible [1].

1. Lost profits due to the infringement.

2. The profits the infringer made from the infringement.

3. The amount the infringer would have had to pay to license the work to use the way they did it if they had requested such a license from the copyright owner.

The first one would likely not apply to something that is solely licensed under GPL, but the other two might, especially #2.

I'm curious how #3 is determined.

There is something similar in the US for patent infringement damages. That involves the court trying to determine what would have happened in a hypothetical negotiation if the patent owner had been willing to license the patent and the infringer had wanted to license the patent.

That can work because usually with patents you can compare to other patent in the same or related field that are about as valuable and have been licensed out. I don't think that there are a lot of open source world class chess engines that are dual licensed for proprietary use that a court could use for comparison.

[1] https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=cef58d76-21a2...

Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by yladiz on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:08PM (#27897876)
Case in point, the awards given against people who pirate something like a movie which are completely detached from the actual damage caused by the piracy.
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by rhizome on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:16PM (#27898721)
Yeah, that's what "statutory damages" means. In the US, if you have registered your copyright (distinct from the automatic copyright that attaches at creation), you are entitled to damages up to $150,000 per infringement. If 1,000 people can be proven to have downloaded that movie from you, that would be an unwelcome bill indeed. If 10,000, well then now you're starting to talk about real money.
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by tzs on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @07:43PM (#27900624)
Statutory damages are per work infringed, not per infringement.

They are normally from $750-30000 per work infringed.

The lower limit can be lowered to $200 if the defendant can prove that they were an innocent infringer (they were not aware and had no reason to believe they were infringing). The defendant has the burden of proof for this.

The upper limit can be raised to $150000 if the infringement is "willful". The statute does not define "willful". Courts have taken it to mean reckless disregard. The defendant knew they were infringing and did it anyway.

The jury decides where in the range you end up, and they certainly might take into account the magnitude of your infringement so 10000 downloads might cost you more than 1000 by convincing the jury to choose somewhere high from the range, but the cap on the total will be $30k (or $150k if it was willful).

Note that this means that willfully distributing 10000000 copies of one movies is going to be a lot better for the defendant than distributing a single copy each of 300 different movies, if the plaintiff elects to ask for statutory damages.

The 10000000 copies of one movie is just one work infringed, so you are looking at $150000 worst case.

The single copy each of 300 movies is 300 works infringed, so best case (assuming you are not an innocent infringer) is the minimal amount of statutory damages per work, $750, times 300 works = $225000.

(But remember that the plaintiff gets to choose between statutory damages and actual damages. If you've distribute 10000000 copies of their movie, they'll probably go for actual damages which could be considerably more than $150000!)

Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by rhizome on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @09:21PM (#27901231)
Ugh, TIL "per work." I'm sure I've read past that 100 times.

Too late to delete, but thanks for the tuneup.

Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by DaiPlusPlus on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:05PM (#27898576)
"Deterrent value", apparently.
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by occamrazor on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:06PM (#27899969)
Statutory damages are virtually non-existent in Europe.
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by Jolter on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:45PM (#27899073)
In Germany? Are you sure about that?
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by PennRobotics on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:08PM (#27899978)
It seems there has already been one similar case in Germany where an open source copyright violation occurred but no damages could be awarded. Specifically, a higher court overturned the damages permitted by a lower court.

(in German) https://www.cmshs-bloggt.de/gewerblicher-rechtsschutz/urhebe...

Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by suyjuris on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @06:06AM (#27904303)
But crucially, in that case the infringer did not make money based on their infringement, and the actual infringement was minor. (Specifically, a university failed to provide a copy of the GPL license alongside a download of the software, which they offered free of charge.)
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by dheera on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:04PM (#27898566)
Hard to say, very often the sour-cream-and-onion-tiff* cannot afford the same quality of lawyers that the plain-tiff can.

* I don't know what the opposite of a plain-tiff is

Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by Gaelan on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:45PM (#27899074)
Defendant, for the record, but your term is way better.
Re:Our lawsuit against ChessBase by alisonkisk on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:49PM (#27899126)
Plaintiff and Defendant.

Complainant and Respondent