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Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by zionic on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:43AM (#27895135)
Starship is going to launch the equivalent of 1000 Hubble’s with 10 years.

You’re thinking too small, this constellation is part of what enables you to someday go to space yourself and have your own observatory on the dark side of the moon etc.

Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by glenda on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:59AM (#27895381)
Not everyone wants to go space, there is something nice about enjoying the stars from your own backyard or on a camping trip. I think this comes close to space pollution if they aren’t able to provide a tangible benefit to people on earth.
Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by capitainenemo on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @12:18PM (#27895721)
Surely inexpensive global high speed internet access is a tangible benefit. Even seems to offer a tangible benefit on that camping trip by increasing likelihood that you could contact someone in an emergency. Cell towers for hiker safety could be put in current dead zones. Not to mention as pointed out elsewhere, these aren't visible all the time so you could still enjoy the stars.
Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by ghaff on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @12:23PM (#27895788)
I fully agree with respect to global high speed internet. However, I'd point out that if being able to contact someone in an emergency even in remote locations is someone's concern, that technology already exists in the form of personal locator beacons (which can also send and receive texts) using existing satellites.
Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by capitainenemo on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @12:38PM (#27895988)
Sure. Absolutely existing geosync satellites exist, the iridium network exists. They are not very accessible tech, and neither would be used to stand up an emergency tower. And maybe it's just my impression, but it seems when I read stories of someone lost in the wilderness, it's often people who don't take precautions, are casual hikers. And for them, having a cellphone that functions, with maps, text and calls, could be lifesaving.

As a personal note, a relative was doing coastal sailing (US east coast, bahamas), and while he wanted access to the iridium network for maps and emergency contact, he couldn't afford the data rates and device costs. He settled for downloaded maps and checking in by cellphone when possible. So, if he was lost out in the crossing to the bahamas, there would have been no contact. (yes, I realise that at present, Starlink is not yet offering ability to move around with your dish, so RV and boats are out of luck for now, apart from the possibility that more towers may spring up)

Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by ghaff on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @12:54PM (#27896183)
Something like the Garmin inReach is pretty accessible these days. A few hundred dollars for the device and as low as about $12/month for the subscription. If I did a lot of solo stuff in out of the way areas, I'd probably have one.

That said, I agree that casual hikers doing dumb things and getting lost definitely happens. But cell phone reception is hardly a panacea. Just because you can call 911 doesn't mean that someone is going to come get you if the conditions are bad. I actually have very mixed feeling with the newish assumption a lot of people have that their cell phone will always work and that, worst case, they can just call for help.

Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by 8note on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:21PM (#27900083)
This is more expensive, slower internet access for most people, no?

Satellites aren't going to beat cables

Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by capitainenemo on Thursday July 22, 2021 @11:55AM (#27920393)
Their latencies are supposedly lower than the ocean cables - low enough that HFT is investigating. https://old.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/itlrjc/starlink_l...

Their costs are moderately higher than existing broadband right now (if you aren't rural), but in news articles I read in past as they upgrade the satellites for more simultaneous connections the goal is to have a lot more subscribers at much lower costs.

Also, for remote areas of the world it would be a choice between this and nothing else.

Even if you were sharing the starlink dish with a few thousand other households to bring the cost down to affordable for your area, you'd still have an improvement over nothing.

Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by slg on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @12:23PM (#27895782)
>I think this comes close to space pollution if they aren’t able to provide a tangible benefit to people on earth.

But they are providing a tangible benefit to people on Earth. Maybe it doesn't benefit you personally or you think the costs outweigh those benefits so it is a net negative, but let's not pretend that there is zero benefit.

Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by jimkleiber on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @12:31PM (#27895901)
> But they are providing a tangible benefit to people on Earth. Maybe it doesn't benefit you personally or you think the costs outweigh those benefits so it is a net negative, but let's not pretend that there is zero benefit.

I don't know the answer and yet think the way we have normally answered such cost/benefit decisions is through government. Currently, we don't have a government where people make decisions based on what's best for the planet or at even just for all of humanity. Perhaps one could argue the UN or other global agreements, but I don't think, in their current forms, they have the ultimate say.

Maybe we need an Earth Council? :-)

Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by Robotbeat on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @01:29PM (#27896619)
Starlink has virtually no impact on naked eye observation of the sky with sunshades.
Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by tayo42 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:59AM (#27895375)
> Starship is going to launch the equivalent of 1000 Hubble’s with 10 years.

Really? link or something?

Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by 8note on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:20PM (#27900077)
It also could easily be part of what ensures that nobody goes to space in the next 50+ years while kestler syndrome takes over
Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by kilotaras on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @08:04AM (#27905153)
> However, even a catastrophic Kessler scenario at LEO would pose minimal risk for launches continuing past LEO, or satellites travelling at medium Earth orbit (MEO) or geosynchronous orbit (GEO) [0]

Blocking usability of LEO is not ideal, but blocking launches is really not the risk.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome#Implications

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Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by cryptoz on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:50AM (#27895236)
Not really...Either Starlink and the rest fail, and the skies clear up again shortly as failed projects get de-orbited. Or they succeed and there will be many established bases in space for research and telescopes.

It's not like the funds from Starlink are going to be used to build casinos in the desert or something. Every $ earned is going back into building better space tech. So if it fails no problem for space views from Earth, and if it succeeds the result is cheap access to space views from space.

Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by yunohn on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:53AM (#27895291)
Could you link to any sources that claim Starlink profits will be used to facilitate astronomy research? Quite an absurd assumption without proof tbh.
Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by m4rtink on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:29PM (#27898137)
AFAIK SpaceX and Elon have said Starlink profits will fund their Mars exploration plans. That effectively hands-on astronomy! ;-)

On a more serious note, if you get the infrastructure going to get a lot of hardware and people to Mars, then getting some more modern space observatories should be quite easy.

Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by cryptoz on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:55AM (#27895325)
First, I never said that. Please read my comment again. Second, Starlink exists to fund the start of a permanent self-sustaining colony of millions of people on Mars. I'm not sure how they would get to that without also doing and supporting a lot of astronomy research along the way.
Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by yunohn on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:59AM (#27895384)
Your assumptions continue but to be unsupported by sources, but rather, blind fanboyism.

Do you have proof that Starlink profits will go towards funding a Mars colony? Or that research into astronomical observations will be required for building a space colony? Or even if so, the overlap somehow helps astronomers on earth?

Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by TeMPOraL on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:39PM (#27899724)
> Do you have proof that Starlink profits will go towards funding a Mars colony?

Funding transportation to Mars to enable establishing the colony, and the question should be, do you have evidence this is not the case? Because this was what Musk/SpaceX have been saying since Starlink was barely an idea, and I haven't seen anyone prove they're lying.

Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by AlexandrB on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @03:37PM (#27898233)
> Every $ earned is going back into building better space tech.

And to the shareholders. Who may choose to build casinos in the desert with that money.

> ... and if it succeeds the result is cheap access to space views from space.

It's more accurate to say it will give us access to space views from space at the highest cost that the market will bear. I assure you this cost will be well above what 95% of the world will be able to afford for quite some time. After all, much of the world can't even afford regular flight.

Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by TeMPOraL on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:36PM (#27899695)
> And to the shareholders. Who may choose to build casinos in the desert with that money.

There's a reason SpaceX isn't public, and it's precisely that. Starlink was, since its conception, and still is, a way to fund the R&D for opening access to Mars.

Re:Astronomers push for global debate on giant satellite swarms by 8note on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:22PM (#27900092)
That's until musk needs to bail out his family by buying one of their failing businesses like with solar city