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Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by rbanffy on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @08:46AM (#27893042)
> But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily

Brazil experienced 12 years of prosperity from 2003 to 2015, with some trouble starting in 2012, but still with solid numbers in unemployment, for instance. Still a hate-based disinformation campaign managed to overthrow a re-elected president for accusations later proved unfounded, paving the way to the election of a far-right president who is ripping apart the fragile fabric of Brazil's still young democracy.

This is why we need to deal harshly with such hatred/disinfo campaigns, ruthlessly deplatforming fringe elements and denying them the chance to drag the Overton window their way.

In the past century Europe saw the construction of facilities used exclusively to commit murder at an industrial scale, designed to be the cheapest way to kill whole populations.

It's people like Orbán, the Le Pens, Jörg Meuthen, Nigel Farage, among many, many others, that took this continent there and, if we don't act, they'll do it again.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @01:49PM (#27896870)
You think that you can "deal harshly with such hatred/disinfo campaigns, ruthlessly deplatforming fringe elements and denying them the chance to drag the Overton window their way" forever, because if the right people run it, they can keep the wrong people from ever coming to power. That's misguided, for two reasons.

First, sometimes the wrong people come to power anyway. If they can't do it by blatant misinformation and propaganda, they'll do it by "wolf in sheep's clothing" tactics. Once they get power, the machinery is there, just waiting for them to use it to enforce their narrative. Sure, by protecting the narratives that are allowed, you might make it more difficult for such a one to come to power, and therefore less probable. You can't make it impossible, though. And if the thought of such machinery in Orban's hands (or Trump's) doesn't terrify you, you're not thinking.

Second, power changes people. You might be a perfectly fine, democracy-loving person. Give you that kind of power and you might not be the same person forever. As Elrond said, "I fear to take the ring to guard it. I will not take the ring to wield it" - and for very good reason. Too much power is a danger even to the good.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @09:18AM (#27893322)
>>This is why we need to deal harshly with such hatred/disinfo campaigns, ruthlessly deplatforming fringe elements and denying them the chance to drag the Overton window their way.

I can't help but to smile the smile of mild horror that calls to overreaching and overzealous censorship of wrongthink ( hate is sufficiently innocuous and broad to cover just about any kind of wrongthink - just the fact that it has been accepted by mainstream as a good enough reason is horrifying ) is so common that is used with adjectives like ruthlessly without any feel for the irony.

I can certainly feel the hate.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by AlexandrB on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @09:09AM (#27893252)
The conditions that allowed Hitler to rise to power were created by the "winners" of WWI with the treaty of Versailles. These are not masses of sheep being led around by brilliant propaganda, they're often people who don't think they have anything to lose by voting for the extreme nationalist over the status quo.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by rbanffy on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @10:52AM (#27894465)
While true, this was not the root cause any more than keeping tons of explosives together in a port warehouse didn't cause the explosion in Beirut.

You are right in the sense that eradicating poverty will probably have a stabilizing effect on many societies, but, in Brazil at least, it wasn't the poorest who supported the rise of fascism - this was driven mostly by the middle class.

In Germany it was the hate speech, the scapegoating, the xenophobia of the nazi discourse, the framing of other people as sub-human, evil and unworthy of living. This led to seemingly normal people inflicting unspeakable evil upon others. And it's frighteningly easy to make a human do that.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by Bayart on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:26AM (#27894895)
>The conditions that allowed Hitler to rise to power were created by the "winners" of WWI with the treaty of Versailles.

That's quite literally Nazi propaganda, although the narrative was born in the US with Keynes as Americans were oddly keen on washing the Germans of their sins, shifting the blame everywhere else and go back to business as usual.

The Treaty of Versailles was nothing particularly odious, Germany could have coped with it fine if it stuck to the terms. It didn't, it broke its economy on purpose to avoid honoring the treaty.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by speeder on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @09:19AM (#27893329)
Accusations are not proved unfounded, he was freed from prison because of a mix of politics, procedural errors from judges that imprisoned him, and changes on how the judiciary works.

And many people rightly saw that the prosperity that happened during Lula's time was because of booming commodities market and exports booming, not because anything he did in particular.

Brazillians voted for Bolsonaro not because he is right wing, but because he promised he would end corruption, and the workers party IS corrupt.

Now that Bolsonaro has proven that he won't end corruption either (starting with him protecting his son), I doubt he will be re-elected, instead whoever else promises to end corruption and is not corrupted that has a good shot.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by ricardobeat on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @09:42AM (#27893589)
> the prosperity that happened during Lula's time was because of booming commodities market and exports booming

Ah, the familiar sound of facts being twisted and turned to conform to what you wish reality had been. We’ve been hearing this same rhetoric of denial since before their government ended. Somehow we should believe that a country of 200 million people was just “going through its motions” for over a decade and the figures in power were just spectators. I guess that leaves room to say the same about the current government - the ongoing destruction of the economy is “not their fault” either.

There are a thousand different policies implemented in those years that helped the country achieve growth. A huge number of them already reversed in the past 5-6 years. Hand waving all of it as “the commodities market boomed” is of such a despicable, willful ignorance.

EDIT: on why I find this so aggravating: to have a decent government you need people to vote based on proposals, political stance on specific issues, policies, not empty promises (like ending corruption). This kind of discourse just continues to poison the well by taking focus away from real economic/political issues and into a red vs blue team mentality.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by rbanffy on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:01AM (#27894583)
> Accusations are not proved unfounded, he was freed from prison because of a mix of politics, procedural errors from judges that imprisoned him, and changes on how the judiciary works

You are talking about Lula, who was jailed after massive procedural "errors", mishandling of evidence, witness intimidation (bordering on torture), evidence inflation and many, many others, conducted by a partisan judge who would be named by the election winner (a win Moro helped him secure by preventing Lula from running) to head the ministry of justice.

Dilma's maneuver was later considered legal and not grounds for an impeachment.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by roenxi on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @09:31AM (#27893450)
> we need to deal harshly with such hatred/disinfo campaigns, ruthlessly deplatforming fringe elements

(1) If you believe that hate-based disinformation campaigns routinely unseat good people ... I might suggest that normalising ruthless deplatforming of "fringe elements" is a strategic blunder?

There is a stereotype of ye goode olde Nazi/Communist regimes. It involves tropes of ruthlessness and deplatforming of fringe elements.

(2) I'm not sure dismissing political opponents as "far right" and "fringe" when they are winning elections is rhetorically feasible. It is hard to get away from the fact that winning an election involves convincing swing voters that a plan is acceptable. It is worth asking some what? and why? style questions. Then getting to answers that don't involve the public becoming suddenly and unexpectedly susceptible to hypnosis.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by kian on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:55AM (#27895324)
It seems a shame to downvote someone who is so genuinely trying to help in this situation. The moment the populace falls for 'far right' rhetoric, it becomes, by definition, centric rhetoric, in the same way that what was once 'left' rhetoric is now being called right-wing because the center has moved so far left. De-platforming and de-humanizing are the playbook by which every totalitarian government, no matter its political colors, has established itself. Be wary listening to anyone who suggests these as a genuine solution, no matter what they wave in solidarity.