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Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by GekkePrutser on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:16AM (#27891911)
> I know nothing about Hungary. But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily.

I've travelled a lot in Eastern Europe and I think I know where this is coming from.

When communism fell, people rejoiced in joining the EU and getting all the benefits of a free society. However what really happened was that those spoils went to the people who were desirable employees. Meaning mainly the young (and those happy few with money or connections). Meanwhile the old communist cronies stayed in power and simply became capitalist oligarchs.

On the other side, older people's built up state pensions were cut or removed due to their jobs being privatised to shady agencies owned by these ex-government oligarchs. An easy way to cheat them out of their benefits they worked for. For all its failures, communism did provide them with a sense of continuity and job security that is now lost.

As a result there is now a strong separation between those with opportunities and those without. The haves and have nots. The older people have been abandoned. Of course these people tend to have traditional values and this is what people like Orban target.

I don't think Orban will really make things better for them, he is just a populist seeing a niche to take advantage of. But the disillusionment is real and very clear to me. I've spoken to some well educated poor people that were just too old to be of interest to capitalist companies. And thus ending up living in an apartment with plastic bags for windows (in -20 degrees C). I spoke to a very well educated school teacher who was begging on the street to pay for her husband's cancer treatment. She wasn't one to fall for these populists as she was way too sharp. But I was shocked how society has let an entire class of hard-working people just drop away into insignificance. In Western Europe we have built a balance between capitalism and welfare, but in Eastern Europe they moved straight to a caricature of hard neoliberalism. It caused a big culture shock and left a whole class of people behind.

We (as the EU) have let this happen by letting these states change their industries to capitalism overnight without setting up a proper welfare system. This will not go away until we find a way to give everyone a decent life in these countries. For some people the EU has been nothing but broken promises. Of course that's a breeding ground for dissent and populism.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by doctorbaum on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:29AM (#27892027)
I'll just add that in Israel there is a similar problem with older immigrants from the former USSR (a big wave of them came to Israel just after the USSR imploding), where they don't have any meaningful pensions saved up.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by GekkePrutser on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:44AM (#27892146)
The people I speak of weren't immigrants though. They were just abandoned in their own countries.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by krzyk on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @07:14AM (#27892344)
> but in Eastern Europe they moved straight to a caricature of hard neoliberalism

Please don't generalise. Have you been to Czech Republic or Poland? There are no such neoliberalisms (I would say same about Hungary, but considering Orban, I'm not sure, I haven't been there)

We have good welfare and educated people don't beg on streets, not to mention plastic bags on windows.

Your description looks more like one for Ukraine.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by GekkePrutser on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @11:01AM (#27894582)
I was in Romania primarily, many times. Have been to Poland a couple of times, but indeed I haven't seen this there. Sorry I was indeed extrapolating my experience in Romania to other countries. I assumed this happened in more countries.

The plastic bags on windows were really common though. There was a really poor apartment block just beside the office and I always felt so guilty looking at it. From the well heated office with free coffee.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by trasz on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @08:52AM (#27893115)
Poland, welfare? :-D

As for neoliberalism: in Poland the usual way of employment, called "umowa o dzieło", gives the employee pretty much no rights whatsoever. It's almost as bad as in the US in that matter, and not comparable at all to Western Europe.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by ptsneves on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @09:45AM (#27893616)
I am not a Pole, but live in Poland. Umowa o dzielo is quite pervasive but this is not a problem specific to Poland. Portugal, my home country has the same problems just the thing is a different name. The translation would be contractor. As a contractor you obviously have no rights, even so i think this is not the equivalent of US employment.

In both countries the governments are trying to make it quite hard to have people with Umowa o dzielo, which are de-facto employees, but do not pay the appropriate taxes nor are corrrectly protected. The employers also have some reason to do this, the protections offered to the employees often make it a very big risk to hire somebody. Regardless, i believe the southern European countries got it much worse on that front. (Note, the Polish social security model was heavily influenced by the spanish one).

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by trasz on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @10:30AM (#27894203)
The difference is, in Poland "umowa o dzieło" isn't hard: if anything it's easier than normal employment, because you don't have to care about things like ZUS, and it's much cheaper (in terms of labour costs).
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by krzyk on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @09:40AM (#27893565)
I have never worked using that "way", always the normal one.

What you describe is used by firms that you can smell a mile away and don't even try to work there.

I'm sure western Europe has similar companies that abuse employer rights.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by trasz on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @10:27AM (#27894151)
In the field of software development, in Poland, this is the normal one.

Also, note that this is not an abuse of employer's rights: that's precisely how "umowa o dzieło" is supposed to work. That's one example of prevalent neoliberalism.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by krzyk on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @02:54PM (#27897688)
No one in my or my wifes family works in any other formnof emoloyment. And believe me they are not software developers.

Yes, that's not a good proof, but you also did not present any sources.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by trasz on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:34PM (#27898926)
It’s a bit hard to find something on this in English; if you can read Polish there’s plenty, eg https://biznes.interia.pl/praca/news-2030-proc-zatrudnionych...
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @01:41PM (#27896760)
It's not just whether peoples' lives improved. It's also how much they expected their lives to improve. If capitalism made life 10% better, that's good. If they expected capitalism to make life 500% better, then 10% isn't so good. And if they look around and see people whose lives are now 500% better, then the resentment is pretty natural.

It's not just that we (the EU, or even the West) let them switch to capitalism without a proper welfare system. We let them without giving them a government that knew how to run a capitalist country (because we didn't give them a government at all). But we let them have the expectations of a functioning Western government, instead of the expectations of a transitioning country that didn't really know how to do either democracy or capitalism.

It worked out pretty well for Germany and Japan to be conquered, and have the US spend a decade showing them how to do both democracy and capitalism. Just saying "Welcome to capitalism and democracy! Glad you're here!" turns out not so well. (The problem, of course, is that when you aren't a conqueror, the country doesn't want you to run it. And when you're fighting against the "evil colonialists" meme anyway, taking over is a really bad look, whether or not the results would be better in the long run.)