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Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by reader_mode on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:34AM (#27891291)
>Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces?

Because outside of your bubble nobody wants this. A random person from Bulgaria is going to have a very different culture from a random person from Netherlands. What do you think happens with power in such conglomerate ?

If you want to see what happens when you create a forced conglomerate of different nations (but still more similar than EU member, languages were way closer and cultures were close as well) into a super state look up Yugoslavia.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by blocked_again on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:36AM (#27891303)
India does this already. With 3x more population and probably has much more diversity and cultural differences than EU.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by biscotte_ on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:23AM (#27891571)
India and USA are often cites as examples of federations than EU should look to implement but that comparison is not valid.

The US were a blank page, with roughly the same crowd starting with the same common goal and aspirations. Europe comes with 15centuries of nationlike structures and history. Latin and AngloSaxons have very different approaches on life and work (particularly visible in the “PIGS” recent controversy...).

As someone said, you cant make the european omelette with nations hard boiled eggs.

The mere facts that the euro bank notes has zero european symbol (because they couldnt find one) speaks for itself. So they put bridges and windows... India has Gandhi.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by ethbr0 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:53AM (#27891782)
Both India and the US also had their bloody moments to make it happen, in the Partition (and then Bangladesh Liberation War) and Civil War respectively.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by biscotte_ on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:26AM (#27892001)
True, but there have been many attempts to create Europe in the past, the 3rd Reich being one of them, Napoleon, and others before. Europhiles dont like that reminder but people at the time used the same rethoric of “building the great Europe”, “nations are too old etc”, I can give you references of actual political figures of the 30s and 40s who had that speech and led their country to collaboration with the nazis in the name of “Europe”.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by Engineering-MD on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:52AM (#27892181)
I think those comparisons are unhelpful. The idea of closer integrity in Europe is not what is unsavoury in those examples, it is the manner in which it was attempted. The EU is an attempt at democratic and mutually agreed union, celebrating differences. Napoleon and the third reich were conquest, bloodshed and forced change.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by ethbr0 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:59AM (#27892230)
I think that's partly parent's point: that integration between disparate cultures has mostly been (and maybe can only be) accomplished with force and bloodshed, however high minded the ideals might seem to its drivers.

And in contrast, this thread's point: that attempts to unify disparate cultures via democracy and mutual agreement, celebrating differences, have difficulties and failures when constituents decide to abandon good faith.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by dalbasal on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @08:16AM (#27892835)
Agreed, but it's not like europe was all nation-centric politics before. Europe was divided into provinces within empires. Ottoman, Russian, Austro Hungarian... most of Europe was part of a multinational empire, most of the time.

The idea that nation states are old, and multinationalism is new is fallacious. It's only post WWII that borders, political control, and ethnic homogeneity are strongly national... Yugoslavia being the most recent example.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by doctorbaum on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:36AM (#27892087)
> I can give you references of actual political figures of the 30s and 40s who had that speech and led their country to collaboration with the nazis in the name of “Europe”.

I would love to (interested in the topic)

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by biscotte_ on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @08:33AM (#27892955)
Check out a guy called Laval in france, leader of collaboration, with his famous speech “i wish germany’s victory”.

First national exhibition hosted by the Vichy government during occupation: “la France europeenne”. Showing maps of future europe, where nation-states would have disappeared.

French far-right at the time was also calling England, “the enemy of europe”, for instance on a book from M. Déat, another politica leader from the 40s.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by toyg on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @10:59AM (#27894564)
> Latin and AngloSaxons have very different approaches

"Anglo-Saxons" are not part of the federation anymore, and stuff like "PIGS" is simply casual racism. Do Northern European countries have a casual-racism problem? Very much so. Would that stop a federation from working in the long run? I doubt it very much. Otherwise Texas and New Jersey would have parted ways a long time ago.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by reader_mode on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:40AM (#27891324)
By that logic India and Pakistan should also merge.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by blocked_again on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:43AM (#27891344)
No your logic was it's not possible to have a country with so much diversity. I just showed a counter example.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by reader_mode on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @04:47AM (#27891370)
I know very little about history of India or the culture, but I guarantee you that creating such entity would result in a civil war, demonstrated throughout European history.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by blocked_again on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:03AM (#27891454)
Yeah. I also don't think it's probably a good idea for the EU to become a country. Countries have a lot more power, autonomy etc which states lack. I think the current system of EU is pretty good.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by saiya-jin on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:30AM (#27891620)
You are comparing uncomparable, the population of India and EU are composed of very different people with different mindsets, expectations, opinions. Indians are generally much more docile (spent 6 months backpacking all around that place, it is really different in this regard).

Also, comparing diversity is tricky - natives from Lappland have 0 in common with say Greek or Spaniards. Same would go for india's extremes, its rather impossible to say who is more different (personally I would still say Europe, since ways of life are almost the same if you look on India east, south, north, west, very similar cuisine etc... not so much in Europe).

We have proven track of how it doesn't work here in Europe, no need to spin another set of wars to re-confirm it.

Also, India sees quite a bit of domestic terrorism in its eastern parts exactly due to mindsets like yours. Not something we like to see here in Europe.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by blocked_again on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:52AM (#27891776)
I never said EU should become a country. I just showed an example of a country with more population and more or less the same diversity which made it work. Obviously there are pros and cons with both approaches. And I think EU is better off the way it is now.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by jollybean on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:13AM (#27891888)
Indian content has a very long history of common governance in the region and very few opportunities for clear cut delineation. A few, but not many.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by Arun2009 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:03AM (#27891458)
The world's second largest standing army that can be called to crush insurgencies also helps.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by C19is20 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:01AM (#27891450)
As a euperson i want it. And i know many more that would like the same. The bubble may be bigger than you think.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by reader_mode on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:13AM (#27891523)
I think it doesn't matter how big the bubble is - you saw what happened with Brexit (and it got validated by EU handling of COVID crisis), now imagine what happens when the only option to leave is succession/civil war.

There are independence tensions within European countries (eg. Spain/Basque, UK/Scotland).

You have to be a blind idealist to think this would work. There are going to be a lot of crisis scenarios for EU in the next few decades, refugees being the looming one EU failed to reach a consensus on and botched previously (that helped radicalise parts of it like Hungary and further alienated UK). The pending post COVID inflation/economic shock could also storm the Euro zone, Greece is still devastated from the "bailouts" in the financial crisis.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by goodpoint on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @07:07AM (#27892300)
> There are independence tensions within European countries (eg. Spain/Basque, UK/Scotland). > You have to be a blind idealist to think this would work

You are confusing independence from nationalism. They are very different things and you can have the first without the second.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by johnnycerberus on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:27AM (#27891605)
What is wrong with the EU handling of COVID crisis? We have vaccinated more people than the US and there was no major breakout since summer 2020. In constrast with the UK where restrictions have been draconic.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by reader_mode on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:39AM (#27891684)
EU botched acquiring vaccine compares to most developed countries by months, in no small part due to the retarded mindset that pharma companies shouldn't profit off of this and trying to renegotiate prices forever (overriding some countries who tried to acquire it individually and would have gotten it faster).

Measures were not dictated by EU, each country decided it's own policy.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by johnnycerberus on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:43AM (#27892139)
Pharma companies should not profit off pandemics. It is an ethical thing to do. And beside that, I know that drug companies are heavily subsidised by state and their research is mostly done with tax-exempt money.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by reader_mode on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @08:01AM (#27892690)
Profit is the strongest market incentive, you want them to profit and invest full on in this kind of research. And pharma profits insanely is still negligible to the loss due to delaying vaccine deployment, spending any nin-trivial amount of time negotiating prices is full on retarded from that perspective, not to mention protecting vulnerable groups ASAP.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by ginko on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:46AM (#27891736)
The only large countries that did better were the UK and US due to banning the export of vaccines. It's mainly the UK trying to spin this as a propaganda win after BREXIT.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by reader_mode on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:47AM (#27891741)
What other comparable developed countries are there ? Australia had it's own isolation thing so it's a different context entirely.

Russia had vacation faster, China as well.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by ginko on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:47AM (#27891745)
Japan and South Korea for instance, but what's your point?
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by reader_mode on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @08:09AM (#27892757)
That some EU members had deals for faster delivery and got overturned by EU causing a worse situation for those countries, just like UK would if it was a part of EU.

Von der Leyen even said so herself, and she still believes it was the right thing to do to stifle the big countries in order to maintain the EU.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by ginko on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @08:12AM (#27892788)
If Germany or the Netherlands decided to ban exports on vaccines they'd probably have had the highest vaccination rates on the planet. But that would just be selfish. Stifling big countries in favor of a fair distribution of vaccines WAS the right thing.

What if some US state with most of the vaccine manufacturing had stopped the export of vaccine over state borders? Would that be fine by you because it's in their self interest?

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by 3np on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @09:35AM (#27893492)
Hardly Japan (it being a disconnected island nation)
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by throwaway473825 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:34AM (#27892063)
> Russia had vacation faster, China as well.

No, they did not. Here's a site where you can see the share of people vaccinated against COVID-19: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by rsynnott on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @10:32AM (#27894218)
> Russia had vacation faster, China as well.

... Wait, what makes you think that? Per OurWorldInData, except for a brief period in early January, EU total doses per capita have always been ahead of Russia and China, until June, when China drew ahead (Russia is still _far_ behind). And even then, that wasn't supply-driven; if you consider EU countries with high vaccine acceptance (Ireland, Germany, Denmark etc), those are still ahead of China; China overtook the EU as a whole due to vaccine reluctance in parts of the EU.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by _fizz_buzz_ on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:15AM (#27891901)
Norway, Canada, Switzerland etc.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by biscotte_ on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @08:37AM (#27892988)
Not UK’s fault if whatever the EU does ends up a mess, whether trying to name a corridor in a Brussels building, or trying to have The European GPS up and running.

Normal, with 27 participants all responding to different national and political interests. Try having a flatshare with 27 families and agreeing on how to paint the wall.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by rsynnott on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @10:27AM (#27894152)
> EU botched acquiring vaccine compares to most developed countries by months, in no small part due to the retarded mindset that pharma companies shouldn't profit off of this and trying to renegotiate prices forever

Eh, that's a dubious narrative. In practice, Europe made an at the time fairly reasonable-looking bet on the wrong horse; significant production problems were expected with mRNA vaccines, while no-one really expected big problems with viral vector vaccines.

As it turned out, mRNA production went amazingly smoothly (to the point that overdelivery by Pfizer/Biontec largely saved the EU programme) while viral vector production was a _disaster_. If AZ and J&J had been able to deliver what they planned, or even modestly underdeliver, the issue of contracts would not have arisen.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by mipsi on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:05AM (#27891843)
I would not overemphasize the cultural differences between the Balkan people and call Yugoslavia a super state. The history of the people there is intertwined and national divisions are very much superimposed by ideologists.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by maigret on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:01AM (#27891444)
Or Switzerland or Belgium. I'd argue that, by now, there are more differences (cultural, economic, political...) between parts of the countries, like cities vs countryside, than between countries.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by joelbluminator on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @05:58AM (#27891813)
Isnt belgium unable to form a government for years? I don't know that Belgium is a diversity succeess story.
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by tut-urut-utut on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @08:28AM (#27892929)
What's wrong with not having the government? It looks like Belgium functions quite well on an administrative level that it doesn't really need a "government".
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by joelbluminator on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @08:41AM (#27893016)
A lot of countries would have loved to be Belgium, I agree. But we're making the case whether national diversity is good or not. If Belgium would have split to the flemish and french parts - why would that have been worse?
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by tut-urut-utut on Thursday July 22, 2021 @04:53PM (#27924185)
Why would that be better if they split. Maybe they would have been swallowed by big neighbours and end up being a poor provinces.

Same for Switzerland, I just can’t imagine they would have it better if they split to four national states.

At least in those two cases national diversity worked great.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by joelbluminator on Thursday July 22, 2021 @07:48PM (#27925726)
It's up to the citizens to decide if it works out great, not up to you or I. So far they grudgingly continue with how things are but at least in Belgium it seems to me to be more about inertia and fear of change than anything else. You can check out this entertaining video (english subs) to see the current state of things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4go1RXOBF0s
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by biscotte_ on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:34AM (#27892067)
Not really... take a look at the average salary in Romania and compare to France of Luxembourg ...
Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by 3np on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @09:21AM (#27893341)
> A random person from Bulgaria is going to have a very different culture from a random person from Netherlands.

And somehow me, a person from Denmark, has more cultural overlap with a hacker hipster from Mexico than most of my childhood classmates. And somehow I still coexist peacefully with my neighbors.

The internet and global travel are breaking down the national cultural barriers (largely induced/imposed by mass media). Meanwhile, power imbalance and widening gaps in the social fabric are increasing issues globally, even in monocultures and regardless of immigrants.

I think the points you raise are orthogonal. Except that you're most likely right that most people don't want this - because the illusion of the shared nation-culture and history has been so deeply imprinted in us by propaganda from the education system, the government, advertising, and media.

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by mihaaly on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @01:00PM (#27896270)
I belive there is a serious confusion here concerning the terms of nation, country, culture.

EU is made of countries and having countries merged does not mean that cultures has to be, actually hundrends of cultures and subcultures live together with other cultures in present countries, even as parts of nations, even inside cultures (subcultures).

It is a basic human need and necessity to collaborate, everybody wants and needs that!! (except those living in a lone grumpy bubble) Those not doing it are not really viable: see Yugoslavia. : )

The EU - and in fact many many countries with hudreds of years of success - is made of and founded by former arch enemies btw....

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by bwb on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @09:25AM (#27893388)
It requires people to become more than what they are now, the same as when we didn't have nationalism and people made that leap "up"...

People need to think beyond these tribes and up it a level. A random person from Bulgaria is very similar to a random person from Netherlands. I welcome the day that our tribe is Earth...

Re:Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted ... by guerrilla on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @06:22AM (#27891963)
> Because outside of your bubble nobody wants this.

This is just dismissively asserrting your opinion as if it were fact. Where are your statistics on this?