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Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by adolph on Monday July 19, 2021 @02:10PM (#27885583)
Is this some vaccine hesitancy in disguise from BMJ?

Stephen Lock, my predecessor as editor of The BMJ, became worried about research fraud in the 1980s, but people thought his concerns eccentric. Research authorities insisted that fraud was rare, didn’t matter because science was self-correcting, and that no patients had suffered because of scientific fraud. All those reasons for not taking research fraud seriously have proved to be false, and, 40 years on from Lock’s concerns, we are realising that the problem is huge, the system encourages fraud, and we have no adequate way to respond.

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by bena on Monday July 19, 2021 @02:48PM (#27886007)
This is almost an apples/oranges comparison.

There's research and then there's research.

Yes, all approved medicines are the result of medical research. But approving medicines isn't the entirety of medical research.

I'm sure you've heard of the adage: egos are large when the stakes are low. This is related to that. The push to "get published" is so great that if you know that your research has no practical effect or that it won't affect anyone, you can kind of make up whatever results you want. As long as it publishes. The goal isn't to find the truth or to answer a question, the goal is to get a byline in a paper. And you get more and better bylines by discovering something radical and novel rather than by saying "Nope, doesn't work, just like expected".

On the flip side, when the results really matter, you'll find people do proper due diligence. Especially when your results will be essentially confirmed practically by billions of people on the planet. When the stakes are high, we wind up being way more cautious.

Of course, I hear your meta-concern. Because, yes, people will use this paper to pull the "Science is a lying bitch"* card. But it is also an issue that must be dealt with or at the very least acknowledged. As the article itself notes, someone did notice it in the 80s, but due to very concern of casting doubt on medical research, they kind of just hoped it wouldn't be an issue. And now the issue is too great to deal with simply.

In the end, medical, and really all scientific, research cannot be "hit driven". Failure must be an option. And if this month's issue of The BMJ is a bit "boring" or "thin", then so be it. The focus must be more on finding the correct answer rather than the flashier answer. Even when the stakes are small.

*Science is a lying bitch: From the It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia episode "Reynolds vs. Reynolds: The Cereal Defense". One of the characters uses the fact that certain noted scientists had incomplete ideas about certain scientific phenomenon or weren't completely right on every subject as proof that science itself was flawed and couldn't be trusted on the subject of evolution and therefore one should believe the biblical account of creation because the bible hasn't been changed since it was written.

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by long_time_gone on Monday July 19, 2021 @02:23PM (#27885731)
Is there a name for the phenomenon where an internet comment is guilty of doing the thing it accuses others of doing?
Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by adolph on Monday July 19, 2021 @02:32PM (#27885832)
also need the name for the one where an accusation is made through a question
Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by hammock on Monday July 19, 2021 @06:24PM (#27887986)
It's called transference in the spook world, and you'll see it in the media/politics all the time.
Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by zucker42 on Monday July 19, 2021 @02:19PM (#27885687)
What? How do you figure that? Some person points out actual instances of poor quality research and you imply he is anti-vaccine? I can find no record of this person discouraging vaccination.
Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by adolph on Monday July 19, 2021 @02:46PM (#27885997)
Ok, maybe its just a coincidence that it was published right when the current dangers of misinformation are so high and so many are failing to believe science.
Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by wizzwizz4 on Monday July 19, 2021 @03:04PM (#27886167)
The solution to “people aren't believing academia” is to make academia more trustworthy (probably by filtering for trustworthiness rather than making individuals more trustworthy), not to encourage scientism. Seeking the truth is still important, after all.
Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by adolph on Monday July 19, 2021 @07:24PM (#27888424)
Wasn’t trustworthiness what “peer reviewed journals” was all about? Clearly research fraud isn’t “seeking the truth.”
Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by faeriechangling on Monday July 19, 2021 @03:19PM (#27886306)
>failing to believe science

Believing in science means believing in falsification and sceptism. This was published during the ongoing replication crisis in medicine where we're finding that more than half of cancer studies don't replicate [1]. This replication crisis hasn't been put on hold and all science is now deemed irrefutable or you are VACCINE HESISTANT and DANGEROUS.

I'm mostly confident in the COVID vaccines because we're at billions of doses and there is so much uncorrelated data about the vaccines, and they're so controversial and their safety/efficacy is being looked at by so many people that one can be relatively confident about their efficacy and safety (so long as you look at uncensored information to avoid systemic bias). We don't need to be science denialists and start denouncing scepticism on safety grounds, we can point out there are special reasons to be confident in the vaccines.

[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/01/18/5103048...

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by adolph on Monday July 19, 2021 @03:31PM (#27886421)
don't replicate != fraudulent

I'm mostly confident in the COVID vaccines <- Is this "mostly" qualifier not the dangerous front end of misinformation and vaccine hesitancy?

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by faeriechangling on Monday July 19, 2021 @03:49PM (#27886596)
I've got both vaccines especially early for my age group (clinical vulnerability) and I've been lobbying my vaccinated peers to at least get one dose, so apparently not.

I say "mostly confident" because we have literally zero data of effects after 3 years and can only make inferences, and it's foolish to feign knowledge you do not have to avoid being called "hesitant", but my lack of confidence does not make me hesitate to recommend the vaccine. I also lack knowledge of long term effects of COVID itself which may in fact be worse than the long term effects of any vaccine given COVID does most of what the vaccines do plus extra nasty stuff.

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by adolph on Monday July 19, 2021 @05:35PM (#27887513)
You are recommending something over nothing despite not being confident in the data about your recommendation?

Which vaccines were in "both vaccines?" An mRNA and J&J, or just both administrations of a two-shot mRNA vaccine?

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by wizzwizz4 on Monday July 19, 2021 @05:56PM (#27887713)
> You are recommending something over nothing despite not being confident in the data about your recommendation?

(Not OP but) Yes. Reasoning despite uncertainty is entirely possible; if you want a mathematical formalism, look into Bayesian statistics.

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by adolph on Monday July 19, 2021 @08:30PM (#27888873)
I don’t think Laplace would call reasoning without data (the commenter’s avowed position) Bayesian.
Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @08:59AM (#27893176)
Zero data of the effects after three years. Plenty of data about the effects after one. It's not “reasoning without data”; it's reasoning without as much data as one would have liked.

Are you doing this on purpose?

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by adolph on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @07:46PM (#27900652)
The commenter did not say the results of one year were under consideration. They described a state of recommendation without information. Besides, March to July isn’t even half a year for phase 3 trials.

https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04811664

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by faeriechangling on Thursday July 22, 2021 @04:13AM (#27916613)
I did mention inferences.

You seem to be concerned that I don't maintain a state of complete agnosticism in any matter which I lack data for, but it's really hard to do so in practice in a world of distinct choices. Most everybody will either get vaccinated or not get vaccinated and at least have made an implicit prediction about the future. Since I was pressured into making that choice it seems hardly surprising that I'm willing to opine on this issue where I lack data.

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by tarere on Monday July 19, 2021 @07:46PM (#27888578)
>"Is this "mostly" qualifier not the dangerous front end of misinformation and vaccine hesitancy? "

I do not understand. HN forum are places where "question everything" should be the norm, especially about science, and more especially about health when so much money is at stake.

It seems we are in a religious quest, with virtue signaling signs everywhere, to laudate the vaccine COVID-19 miracle. Everything is "magic". Somehow one could make a parallel with the state of the economy and the stock market. We are printing our way to prosperity as we are saving the world with "methode Coué" and of course brutal coercition (mandatory vaccination at state level).

What part of "you can not buy time" don't you understand ?

You may throw billions, no, trillions, quadrillons, bazillions to all the Silicon Valleys startups and brains to developp a vaccine in a matter of months ; but you can not buy a 3, 5, 10 years study with this money. You can't even buy one month or one second, you just have to wait, this is life and bio-trans-human thinking still can't and never will overcome nature, space and time.

So you might be "mostly" confident about the vaccine, I would say that this is the absolute maximum optimism best case scenario adjective you can use. Moderna, Pfizer sure are, "risk big, win big".

But we'll have to wait a few years more to completely assert something like "safe and effective" for the COVID vaccines, that is not a fact anybody can deny.

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by zucker42 on Monday July 19, 2021 @03:12PM (#27886228)
Well of course I'm not going to believe blatantly fraudulent "science". That has nothing to do whether or not I would take a COVID vaccine (I have). Trying to suppress the truth that there is shoddy or false research to keep up appearances is ridiculous. There's something between ignoring scientific evidence you dislike and credulously taking everything a scientist says as fact.

And the "dangers of misinformation" have been high for a long time now (perhaps since antiquity). Modern climate change denial has its roots in the 90s, and modern vaccine skepticism is similarly old.

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by adolph on Monday July 19, 2021 @03:17PM (#27886282)
What is your plan for identifying the "blatantly fraudulent?"

How do you know your medical provider agrees with you about what is "blatantly fraudulent?"

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by joshuaissac on Monday July 19, 2021 @04:58PM (#27887178)
> What is your plan for identifying the "blatantly fraudulent?"

One way is to assume that all health research is fraudulent, unless proven otherwise through replication by multiple unrelated parties.

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 19, 2021 @02:28PM (#27885786)
No, this is about all of medecine, not about vaccines for a specific illness.
Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by adolph on Monday July 19, 2021 @02:31PM (#27885814)
Are "vaccines for a specific illness" not in the set "all of medicine?"
Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 19, 2021 @03:19PM (#27886302)
Yes. But "all of medecine" is not in the set "vaccines for a specific illness".
Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by adolph on Monday July 19, 2021 @03:36PM (#27886469)
Affirming the consequent, sometimes called converse error, fallacy of the converse, or confusion of necessity and sufficiency, is a formal fallacy of taking a true conditional statement (e.g., "If the lamp were broken, then the room would be dark,") and invalidly inferring its converse ("The room is dark, so the lamp is broken,") even though the converse may not be true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 19, 2021 @04:08PM (#27886758)
You are trying to take a very general statement and make it a statement only about one very specific subset. That does not mean that someone pointing out your logical flaws is falling into the converse fallacy.

It's like someone writes an article about drought in the west, and you're saying that they must really be talking about El Centro, California. Yes, it probably includes El Centro, but it's also talking about Phoenix, and LA, and Salt Lake City, because it's really talking about the west as a whole. Trying to make it be "about" El Centro is missing the point.

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by adolph on Monday July 19, 2021 @05:43PM (#27887594)
The article is about all of medical research. Vaccine development is part of medical research and is therefore included. I did not attempt to "make it a statement about one very specific subset." I pointed out that the article is similar to the kind of article seized upon by people who have vaccine hesitancy ideations.

Take your straw elsewhere.

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 19, 2021 @08:29PM (#27888865)
So, on an article that you admit is about all medical research, you asked:

> Is this some vaccine hesitancy in disguise from BMJ?

Why, in an article that's about all of medicine, do you ask about BMJ's stance on vaccines? Why not ask about their stance on chemotherapy? Why single out vaccines? And, in the current climate, are you talking about all vaccines, or are you really talking about vaccines for one particular disease?

That question you asked is your innuendo, not my strawman. Maybe you should take that somewhere else.

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by adolph on Tuesday July 20, 2021 @09:37AM (#27893528)
The timing and motivation of publishing something is a valid line of inquiry and not innuendo. Vaccine hesitancy is a salient topic of the day. A world leader accused a major social network of killing people by distributing misinformation [0]. Why would a publication choose this moment to editorialize about fraud in medical research? This wasn't a long running experiment from which new information was developed. Why publish now?

Maybe it has nothing to do with vaccines but rather maintaining the BMJ brand ahead of some new fraud they know will come to light, or a warning to researchers who might publish elsewhere. Why publish and why publish now?

0. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-biden-facebook-soc...

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by artifact_44 on Monday July 19, 2021 @02:32PM (#27885827)
That was my first thought as well. Casting doubt, and then in a few days we'll see this opinion piece references by some right wing politician who is vaccinated but "can understand their constituents hesitency to trust the medical establishment".

Also I haven't seen anyone bring up the perverse incentive of capitalism in this thread. Like.. let's just pretend this is moral failing rather than the literal race to the bottom of capitalism.

Re:Time to assume that health research is fraudulent until p... by adolph on Monday July 19, 2021 @02:39PM (#27885912)
Perverse incentives exist in many socio-political systems, capitalism isn't unique in that regard. For example, the Soviet whaling industry [0] sounds almost like the paperclip maximization AI [1].

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling_in_the_Soviet_Union_an...

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_convergence#Paper...