According to the World Bank, The Netherlands are the 23rd country in the world with the lowest organized crime:

https://tcdata360.worldbank.org/indicators/h3031de56?indicat...

They are tied with Switzerland with the 27th lowest homicide rate in the world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...

Fair enough, but that's also a function of the fact that NL is a huge transshipment point and the gangs here try very hard to lay low to avoid attracting attention to their activities.

Meanwhile, a dutch fruitcompany (https://www.bd.nl/bommelerwaard/fruithandel-de-groot-doelwit...) and its employees are attacked regularly because a load of drugs was caught in transit.

I'm afraid there is a tendency to underreport crime in Netherlands. Mainly because the police and legal system seem not to be very effective. So, the statistics can be misleading.

It's still a bit early to call the Netherlands a narco state, but it's worrying yes. Vice has a good series about this issue[0].

[0] https://video.vice.com/en_uk/video/vice-lean-weed-and-cocain...

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50821542 (related)

I thought you would be exaggerating but searching for "Netherlands" and "narco state" revealed a scarily large number of articles, some of which are several years old already. I wonder how I could have missed that.

I was already aware that the Netherlands had a drug problem in general, both by smuggling via their huge ports and by cartels producing them locally. I had even submitted a map [0] with locations of amphetamine production sites not long ago and most of them are in the Netherlands but the amount of crime that seems to accompany it is frightening.

[0] https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/media-library/map-location-site...

In a word: Rotterdam. We have Mexican cartel bozos operating inside the country in their own labs preparing drugs for further distribution into the european market.

Thanks for the map. That is interesting.

> the amount of crime that seems to accompany it is frightening

Do you have some kind of source that last statement? Do you mean frightening as in "big" or frightening as in "it scares me"?

Criminalising goods which are in high demand seem to have that effect.

> On a margin that far surpasses almost all other countries in the west.

Which developed country doesn't it surpass? From what I've seen the Netherlands is well on the road to becoming today's Mexico.

Interesting. In Sweden there is a lot of talk now about liberalizing drug laws to fight organized crime (by taking their market away from them), but this hasn’t worked out for the Netherlands?

Drugs are very much not liberalized in the Netherlands, even growing Marihuana is illegal.

We're just not arresting drug users, that's it. But it's still very much a criminal enterprise to create the stuff.

How much do you think that liberal immigration and drugs laws are responsible for that? What are the proposed changes to revert this narco-state status?

That is a non-sequitur; GP states drugs are not liberalized and you ask after liberal drugs laws. Immigration laws are a European matter, we are a Schengen country and can do little about internal European travel; at the European frontier, even illegal pushbacks are done in a vain attempt to keep people out.

The narco-state situation didn't start in 2015. It comes from decades, where there was no "European matter" but each Country decided by its own.

The report is from 2000 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/new-wave-of-criminals-operat..., unfortunately, I couldn't find the original report from 1999/2000 from Europol

I was just reacting what you wrote in relation to its parent. Also, please don't edit your comments to say something entirely different. And also, I don't know about you, but both Lutger and me live in the country under discussion.

you both live there, I grew up there. I'm German with a migration background and spent most of my youth age in Den Haag, in an Aruban clique, my second language is Portuguese and we used to mix Papiamento, Portuguese, German, English, Dutch. We knew every group and who did what there. First time that I saw a real gun was there. I'm talking from end 90s.

I must admit I have lived a more sheltered life than you.

what, I just edited, after you edited. So, its ok, no?

You initially called me something, then added the link to the Irish newspaper, then removed the entire text of the original comment.

I did add and clarify, but not remove.

yup, because your answer was a simply: "its a fallacy" without giving any argument, so I did the same. You updated it with a better reasoning and so did I.

We haven't legalized the production of drugs in the Netherlands, so our 'gedoogbeleid' does not help against organized crime. It does help on the health side of the debate though.

Large-scale manufacture and trade in drugs is still illegal in the Netherlands. The retail coffeeshops are tolerated, but they all still have to buy from criminals.

Even small-scale is illegal. We are not as liberal as our reputation. The conservative and christian parties have been in power for several decades now, and drug policies have only become less liberal under their governance.

Ironically, some of the US states are now among the most liberal and forward-thinking in the West - the Dutch are becoming more and more backwards (I live there).

Indeed. I should have said illegal _and actively prosecuted_, unlike small-scale trade at the Amsterdam coffeeshops that most foreigners are familiar with.

That sounds like the worst of both worlds: allow a massive market to develop and then funnel the money into the criminal sector…

The Netherlands hasn't liberalized drug laws in decades. There's a large discussion at the moment about fully legalizing marihuana (which, while tolerated, is still illegal).

There is? I mean, I talk about it allot, but I feel like I'm the only one.... Maybe it's a more common line of thinking outside of Stockholm? Or maybe it's just not common in my circuits

”In Sweden” should perhaps have been “in my Twitter feed”. :)

Ah, that makes sense. Now I want to hang out in your Twitter feed... Sounds like a nice place!

The Netherlands is an exporter. Be careful what you wish for.

Mexicans are being flown in to operate meth labs and coke launderies in the countryside.

How much do you think that liberal immigration and drugs laws are responsible for that? What are the proposed changes to revert this narco-state status?

I don't think the Mexicans apply for citizenship, and are just on a tourist visa.