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Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by cogman10 on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @10:41AM (#27833559)
As someone that was raised in a highly religious home, I have to wonder how much of estrangement has to do with the younger generation's abandonment of religion.

Go to nearly any church and you'll see the primary demographic is older individuals. In my younger days, it was quite a bit more even.

Millennials and Gen Z have dumped religion and with it a lot of the social norms. For example, homosexuality. Most Millennials and Gen Z have no problem with someone being gay. It's socially acceptable. Yet just a couple of decades ago one of the hardest hitting insults you could throw at someone was suggesting they weren't straight.

I wish more authors/researchers would explore this.

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by jahnu on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:01AM (#27833808)
I grew up in Ireland and it was still very conservative and religious back in the late 70s to the late 80s of my youth. We only legalised divorce in 1997!

But since then there has been a sea change in attitudes. Marriage equality, abortion on demand, an openly gay man as premier. Little backlash against migrants even when the economy tanked in 07-08. But this did not cause much in the way of estrangement. Indeed I have seen the older generations change too, not just put up with things.

I can only speculate as to why. I think partly because people started to travel and see how things were better in other more enlightened countries and imported those values to Ireland. Life was also improving for most people as an amazing rate which leaves little reason to look for people to blame for things. The church destroyed it's own standing by being totally uncompromising in its attitude to change and covering up abuse.

I believe Ireland also looked on in horror at American politics descending into a complete shit-show with scant respect for the principles it once stood for. You must understand that up till the 90s most Irish thought the USA was the pinnacle of western society. We still hold great affection for the people in general and artistic culture and landscape but the toxic politics, uncompromising religious attitudes and so on are something we view as having held us back in the past and once we abandoned that or at least compromised we made progress.

Anyway, this is just a bit of a brain dump of one point of view. Take it as it is ;)

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by cogman10 on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @12:08PM (#27834668)
I mean, 70s and 80s was the peak of the troubles. Things didn't really settle down until '00.

I have to wonder how much the violence of the last few decades impacted ireland and the nations ability to just accept "the other".

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by jahnu on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @12:43PM (#27835105)
It must surely have had an effect. Hard to really say what though. However, in the Republic the troubles were almost always a thing that happened "up north" and didn't really have any bearing on day to day life in the south for the vast majority of the people. To illustrate how little people of the Republic cared about religion; I was raised Catholic and my best friend in high school was an Irish protestant and I didn't even know that about him for 3 years! And not because it was taboo, but because it was uninteresting to us. In my experience by the early 90s, religion or nationality was just not high up the list of things that defined people. E.g. lots of English people moved to Ireland in the 90s as it became a more desirable place to live and found themselves welcomed. (I'm speaking generally, I'm sure some people had negative experiences and don't wish to diminish that).

The Irish struggled a bit more with immigration from more different cultures and racism is a challenge everywhere but compared to many other European countries Ireland is on a better path I would say.

I'm rambling a little, but to your question about how the troubles shaped Irish attitudes it's worth noting as a result of the Belfast (good Friday) Agreement our constitution does acknowledge every citizens right to define their own identity.

Also, here's an interesting story about how Irish view the "other" today

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/jul/14/pitching-up-anc...

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by octostone on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @10:49AM (#27833666)
On mobile so I can’t look now, but from what I recall the people who have looked into it (and quite a few have) find that the causal relationship goes in the other direction, at least in the US —- young people have abandoned religion because of religions treatment of homosexuals, women (including access to abortion), and, for white evangelicals, their treatment of racial minorities. Religious organizations in the US have persecuted their culture war at great expense. IIRC they’re currently replacing those lost young people with people who are attracted to their movement specifically because of these various bigotries, so I think they’re holding about even, but given demographic shifts I don’t know how long that will be sustainable.
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by mbg721 on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:18AM (#27834050)
Isn't that abandonment of religion exactly the same estrangement that the article is talking about? The sexual revolution is all about realizing an identity built around personal growth and happiness; the young people who have bought into that idea have high expectations of religion, but get disillusioned with these organizations' failings and cut them off.
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by bigbillheck on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @05:04PM (#27838414)
'The' sexual revolution (i.e. the big one) started in the 60s and pretty much stopped in the early 80s (you can probably guess the reason; it's usually spelled with 3 or 4 letters, depending). That's far enough ago that children born afterwards are old enough to have estranged children of their own. (For an anecdote, which is of course the singular of 'data', I have a close relative born in the late 70s who is already a grandparent).
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by Robotbeat on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:32AM (#27834239)
Sexual revolution started really with the Boomers, and I believe it is technologically driven.

Invention of the Pill (and similar biotech medical advances) changed everything forever in ways we still don’t understand. And the consequences/reasons don’t cleanly break along Culture War fault lines. (The Culture War was, in many ways, created by The Pill, too.)

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by alisonkisk on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @12:59PM (#27835308)
why didn't previous generations do the same? religion was even more bigoted then.
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by bart_spoon on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @12:25PM (#27834891)
I'm unsure if its related to estrangement, but I don't think its farfetched to assume its a big factor. Its interesting to me that for many who consider themselves non-religious often have taken up something else (overwhemingly, politics it seems) to fill the hole, often with the same zeal and dogmatic outlook that they look down on in traditional faith-based belief systems.

But I also think its more than simply the abandonment of religion. It is the abandonment of religion combined with the rise of the internet/social media. It isn't only religion that has suffered participation declines in the previous decades. Local communities of all kinds have crumbled. The internet has provided people with a means of escape from anyone that could possibly disagree with you and allows you to find perfectly insular cultural bubbles. This is immediately more gratifying than real world relationships, but it also conditions people to have zero tolerance for anyone in "meat space" that isn't in complete alignment with them, in which case they simply distance themselves from the relationship. But at the same time, many of these online community relationships tend to be more shallow and superficial than real life ones, which is why so many people report strong feelings of loneliness in their lives.

We've essentially dismantled most of our traditional local sources of community and replaced them with superficial but unsatisfying online ones.

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by tablespoon on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:04AM (#27833845)
> As someone that was raised in a highly religious home, I have to wonder how much of estrangement has to do with the younger generation's abandonment of religion.

Honestly, there's probably a deeper cultural change that's driving both: ever increasing individualism and increasing unwillingness to sacrifice the expression of that individualism for anything.

This from the OP was pretty poignant and struck me as very true:

> ...This freedom enables us to become untethered and protected from hurtful or abusive family members.

> Yet in less grave scenarios our American love affair with the needs and rights of the individual conceals how much sorrow we create for those we leave behind. We may see cutting off family members as courageous rather than avoidant or selfish. We can convince ourselves that it’s better to go it alone than to do the work it takes to resolve conflict. Some problems may be irresolvable, but there are also relationships that don’t need to be lost forever.

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by twiddling on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:22AM (#27834112)
> Honestly, there's probably a deeper cultural change that's driving both: ever increasing individualism and increasing unwillingness to sacrifice the expression of that individualism for anything.

2020 with the US election and the spectrum of response to COVID has thrown this into stark relief. As someone in their late 40s, I have been shocked by the selfishness of my fellow citizens.

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by ryandrake on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @12:46PM (#27835126)
I think people confuse individualism with narcissism. There's nothing inherently bad about individualism: Self-reliance, independence (vs. interdependence), etc. I think these are mostly seen as good traits, at worst neutral.

What we saw building in the last decade or so, and come to a head in 2020 is out-of-control narcissism: Selfishness, entitlement, lack of empathy, this belief that life is a movie and you are the main character. This is the kind of thing that not only estranges one from family, friends, and society, but prevents any sort of collective action for societal good.

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by alisonkisk on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @01:01PM (#27835340)
Unless you live alone in the woods, alleged individualism is usually a narcissistic or selfish denial of one's true dependence on others for support
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by iammisc on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @10:48AM (#27833655)
I agree... I don't relate to these articles at all. My parents are religious, and yeah, in some ways they're out of touch, but they're not so out of touch as this article makes them out to be. All old people tend to be slightly out of touch with the younger generation. My grandparents didn't always understand my parents. Such is the way of the world.
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by michaelscott on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @10:51AM (#27833683)
I think the article is talking about estrangement proper, where children and parents do not talk to each other at all, not that they engage but sometimes don't understand one another. The former is more serious, the latter is expected.
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by iammisc on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:14AM (#27833987)
I don't think I understand that either. My view of family is definitely one of obligation not understanding.
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by polka_haunts_us on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @01:47PM (#27835936)
I think some young people don't view family as obligatory if it negatively affects them. My sister and I would certainly classify ourselves as such. My sister rather intentionally after graduating college cut contact with my mom to a very minimal amount, and I remember vividly my mom being in tears on a frequent basis because my sister had blocked her facebook account and wasn't responding to her daily emails about rather invasive topics that frankly, were none of her damn business. One time my mom asked me to do some chore, and after I came in I realized by looking at my browsing history that she had snuck into my room to use my facebook to snoop on my sister. It's absolutely mental.

Not that she has any real room to protest here, she deliberately estranged herself in the very complete sense from her parents and sisters, I've never met a single person on that side of the family despite them living an hour away.

In kind of a macro sense I appreciate my parents raising me, but I do not consider continued contact with them obligatory in any way, shape, or form, and certainly not at the level that my parents in particular want that relationship.

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by iammisc on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @02:59PM (#27836932)
> In kind of a macro sense I appreciate my parents raising me, but I do not consider continued contact with them obligatory in any way, shape, or form, and certainly not at the level that my parents in particular want that relationship.

This is what I can't understand. I get not wanting a relationship if your parents were abusive. But if you 'appreciate your parents raising [you]', then clearly you think your childhood was 'good enough', so don't you think you owe them something? Anything? MY childhood was hardly perfect. My mother and father are both incredibly flawed individuals who still get on my nerves, to the point of tears many times. But... they're my parents. I mean, I've made them cry before, and I know I have all kinds of negative personality traits. I can't imagine them just leaving me like that. Sounds terrible

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by baseballdork on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @05:37PM (#27838757)
> don't you think you owe them something? Anything?

IMHO, no. You don't owe your parents anything for doing the job they signed up for. I have a great relationship with my parents and had a great upbringing. It's very difficult for me to imagine cutting off contact. However, I also don't feel like I owe them a single thing and I think they'd agree with me on that.

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by cogman10 on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @06:27PM (#27839239)
Hmm, I have a hard time relating precisely with this.

For example, if my parents someday needed a place to stay (maybe they can't take care of themselves). I'd feel responsible for them. I definitely feel like I'd owe them that and would feel responsible for their well being.

Though, that wouldn't be unconditional. I can certainly envision a bunch of situations that would change that.

I guess what I'm saying is it's complicated to me.

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by ProfessorLayton on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @10:13PM (#27840774)
Humble opinions aside, if your parents live in one of 26 U.S. states, then yes you do owe your parents what amounts to basic needs at minimum [1]. Even if you and your parents are in agreement that you owe each other nothing, about half of U.S. states disagree, and they have the legal mechanisms in place to make you responsible for their needs, should they be impoverished.

I'm lucky enough to have a decent upbringing and get along with my parents as well, and this comment isn't intended to be combative, but the "You don't owe your parents anything for doing the job they signed up for" is not strictly true in a legal sense. This is a reflection of American family values enshrined in law.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_responsibility_laws

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by baseballdork on Thursday July 15, 2021 @08:50AM (#27844083)
Neither me nor my parents live in any of those states. Even if I did, legal obligation is not what this conversation was about. I spend time and share resources with my parents because I love sharing with them. If that dynamic changes, then it'll stop.
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by nate_meurer on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @02:40PM (#27836704)
It sounds like you had a decent family, but are you able to see that your experience isn't universal? Can you imagine that many other people have vastly worse families, with a wide range of abusive and predatory behaviors?
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by iammisc on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @02:57PM (#27836917)
Yes, I have considered that. I know many people who rightly rejected their own family. It is sad and very tragic and scary.

However, I also know a lot of people raised like I was who have left as well, and see no problem with it. They had perfectly fine childhoods, but treat their parents like trash.

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by watwut on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @03:40PM (#27837477)
You dont see into other families unless you are really really close. Neither into their childhoods nor into their adult relationships. People and kids are kept away from internal conflicts and issues, whether abusive or non abusive.

Sometimes you are 47 years old when you learn about stufd like alcoholism, gambling, violence in own extended seemingly model familly. Pretty heavy stuff and still managed to be quite hidden. Less heavy stuff is even easier to keept away from others.

Plus people who distance or leave parents as adults often react to how relationship looks now and what it does to them. And sometimes it is done to protect your own kids or so that you are not forced to entangle yourself into new dramas.

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by kenjackson on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:43AM (#27834373)
The article isn’t saying this happens to all families.
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by erdos4d on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @05:56PM (#27838924)
Rather than religion, I would expect the real driver in this is just a shift in culture between the generations, with religion being one of the fault-lines. If one looks at the boomers or gen X, for all the countercultural ideals they may have experimented with, they have turned out to be remarkably conservative once into later life, following closely in their parent's cultural footsteps. I feel the millenials and gen Z are legitimately different people, much more willing to live a lifestyle and hold values extremely different than their parents. Your example of gay acceptance is just one in a long list of genuine cultural differences between the older and younger generations.
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by cogman10 on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @06:41PM (#27839385)
It may be my upbringing, but it's really hard for me to pull the two apart. In my small home town, religion was (and to a large extent is) the local culture. Everything revolved around the local religion. 90% of the town practiced the same faith, so edicts from that faith's leadership would invariably effect everything. Cultural acceptability was measure by the standards of the faith. Granted, that was a VERY controlling faith.

For me personally, what drove me away from my childhood religion was simple research into it's history. Why should I care if my leaders claim homosexuality is a sin when they've done far worse in the past also claiming to come from god?

Yet for my parents, going against the leader's edicts is unthinkable.

All that comes back to my thoughts on estrangement and religion. While that's not a route my parents have taken, it happens a lot from the online stories I've read.

I guess this is a long winded way to say I'm still trying to figure out how much culture causes religion and religion causes culture. How many of these wild generational differences are due to just general cultural shifts from things like media, and how many of these changes came from things like leaving a faith behind? Did A cause B or B cause A or is it too complicated to be answered in a HN comment section.

[dead]
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by iso1631 on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @02:32PM (#27836605)
> 26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity, as "normal, natural, healthy."

When Stalin came to power, homosexuality became a topic unfit for public depiction, defense or discussion. Homosexual or bisexual Soviets who wanted a position within the Communist Party were expected to marry a person of the opposite sex, regardless of their actual sexual orientation

The Khrushchev government believed that absent of a criminal law against homosexuality, the sex between men that occurred in the prison environment would spread into the general population

The first Khrushchev-era sex education manual...described homosexuals as child molesters: "...homosexuals are aroused by and satisfy themselves with adolescents and youngsters, even though the latter have a normal interest towards girls

....

Thousands of people were imprisoned for homosexuality and government censorship of homosexuality and gay rights did not begin to slowly relax until the early 1970s

....

In 1984, a group of Russian gay men met and attempted to organize an official gay rights organization, only to be quickly shut down by the KGB

....

On 27 May 1993, homosexual acts between consenting males were legalised

> 40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

The 1944 Edict... sought to preserve the family unit by making divorces even more difficult to obtain

You'll have to provide some evidence that your list is anything to do with McCarthyist Commumism fears

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by cogman10 on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:41AM (#27834359)
Tying everything you don't like to communism, like Skousen LOVED to do, is a pretty poor argument. EVERYTHING that these quacks and racists didn't like was tied to communism [1].

If you can explain to me how government controlled production has ANY relationship to culture or the acceptance/rejection of homosexuality, I'm all ears. Bare in mind, communist governments have routinely banned homosexuality. [2]

To the likes of Skousen, everything that isn't accepting mormonism as the one true religion is a communist plot.

[1] https://sites.google.com/site/heavenlybanner/crtool

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by mizzack on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:49AM (#27834450)
Added scare quotes to "communists". I'm not talking about literal communists. 50's boogeyman communists. Maybe I _did_ mean that flippantly.
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by cogman10 on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:59AM (#27834566)
I don't really see your point then. Why bring this up at all? Just to show that the worst fears of extremists have come true?
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by pjc50 on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:26AM (#27834167)
This is just warmed-up McCarthyism. Reading a rant from a right-wing source isn't actually evidence of anything. And the Soviet Union has been dead for thirty years.

It is the same warzone though. But the people fighting it from the right look increasingly like the one Japanese guy who refused to acknowledge the surrender until the 1960s.

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by mizzack on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:31AM (#27834217)
Different boogeymen, same orthodoxies.

Edit to your edit: They are looking fringe because the other side won ;)

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by benlivengood on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @02:37PM (#27836671)
I'd say that you really have to look back farther to the enlightenment for the source of basically all of those bulletpoints. It's not communism that came up with any of those ideas, it just happened to find them useful/worthwhile.
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by drewbuschhorn on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:31AM (#27834227)
If you cite Skousen as proof of anything, you've made a real mistake.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society

They're the seed of QAnon.

Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by mizzack on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:34AM (#27834273)
I'm not spouting anything as proof of anything. Just demonstrating as a matter of record that culturally this battle has been waged before.
Re:A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement by drewbuschhorn on Wednesday July 14, 2021 @11:45AM (#27834399)
>The communists won the culture war.

You then cite Skousen's talking points as if those were the "communists" actual goals and not his fever dreams.

The JBS lost, "communists" or "progressive orthodoxies" (conflating the two shows your priors) didnt win.