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Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by tzs on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:00AM (#27783746)
I find that a bit hard to believe.

The rate of heat flow across an insulator is proportional to the temperature difference across the insulator, if I recall correctly.

Suppose you want the inside of you house to be at temperature Tin when occupied and the temperature outside is Tout.

The rate of heat flow across the boundary between inside and outside will be k|Tin-Tout|.

Imagine two identical houses.

In house #1 we keep it at a constant Tin. In house #2 we keep it at Tin while occupied but when empty we let it move toward Tout, turning on heating or cooling when it is going to be occupied again to get it back to Tin when the people return.

For each house, if we plot |Tin-Tout| over time, the total energy used over a given interval will be proportional to the area under that |Tin-Tout| curve.

For house #1, that curve is simply a horizontal straight line.

For house #2, that curve matches the curve of #1 while the house is occupied, but during the unoccupied times falls toward zero until it is time to get it back to Tin in anticipation of people returning home. It then rises back up to Tin.

The area under house #2's curve will be less than the area under house #1's curve.

Thus, in terms of energy required to produce the desired temperature curve, house #2 uses less than house #1.

There are inefficiencies in producing and applying that energy, though, and so getting a given amount of energy applied to heating or cooling the house from your heating or cooling system will take more energy, and that extra energy might depend on Tin or Tout, so it is possible that this might be a big enough effect to counter the savings from letting the unoccupied temperature move toward Tout.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by deregulateMed on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:04AM (#27783772)
Isn't it harder to heat 32 degree air 1 degree than heat 70 degree air?

This was my 400 level thermo 2 class, we calculated everything, inefficiency, convection, conduction.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by aw1621107 on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:28AM (#27784004)
> Isn't it harder to heat 32 degree air 1 degree than heat 70 degree air?

From a pure heat capacity viewpoint, heating cooler air is very slightly easier (on the order of a few thousandths at most for realistic temperatures) [0]. Don't think it'll be noticeable for the average heating system, though.

> we calculated everything, inefficiency, convection, conduction.

I'd be curious to how those calculations affect things. If the heating element is the same temperature, I'd think heating cooler air would be faster because heat conduction is faster across a larger temperature differential and you'd get "faster" convective mixing for air with bigger temperature differences. Have to admit I'm not sure what inefficiencies might come into play, and I haven't taken classes at that level so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something.

[0]: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-specific-heat-capacit...

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by deregulateMed on Friday July 09, 2021 @11:25AM (#27784644)
I could not find the problem I was referencing. I'm either wrong, or the problem wasn't in the book and was in the professors notes. I'm leaning on the later, but unless I reply with something else, assume I'm wrong.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by aw1621107 on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:08PM (#27785173)
Sorry to hear that you couldn't find the problem. Was hoping that I'd get to learn something new
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by codingdave on Friday July 09, 2021 @11:58AM (#27785041)
Much of the energy drain when heating/cooling a home is the fan to blow the air. These days, keeping the fan running is quite efficient. Turning it off, then putting in a large draw to get it moving again is expensive.

So at least part of the efficiency comes from not restarting the fan repeatedly.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by Johnny555 on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:31PM (#27785467)
My furnace has an 80,000 BTU burner (equivalent to 23,000 watts), and a 1/2 horsepower blower, which would use around 600W.

So the blower uses less than 3% of the energy used by the burner. Some of the waste heat from the blower motor probably helps heat the home, so in reality it's probably less than that.

While startup current is significant (for a very short time), starting the fan up in the morning and again in the evening after work doesn't add that much to the total power drain, or even cycling it on/off a few times an hour to maintain temperature. Starting wattage on that motor is around 1800W, but only lasts for a few seconds.

Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by dTal on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:58PM (#27787238)
This is wrong on several levels. The energy expended by a fan is proportional to the mass flow. The energy required to accelerate the rotor is negligible compared to the ongoing energy required to keep it turning and doing work. Also, I'm pretty sure that the energy use of the fan is itself negligible compared to the heat pump.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by codingdave on Friday July 09, 2021 @03:27PM (#27787571)
Hm - everything people are saying makes sense. I was repeating what I've been told by literally every HVAC guy I've had work on multiple houses over the last 10+ years. If the professionals are all wrong, I suppose it could just be one of those tropes that persists in an industry?
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by Dylan16807 on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:59PM (#27789810)
If the fan is off for at least a minute, the energy to start it should be much smaller than the energy to keep it going. If that's not true, then fix the fan design.
Re:New ‘mirror’ fabric can cool wearers by nearly 5°C by pjerem on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:20PM (#27785321)
What fan are you talking about ?