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Re:SF's crime debate turns nasty by lotsofpulp on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @07:52AM (#27760012)
Since the root causes are not, and will not be addressed, I predict the pendulum will simply swing too far in both directions.

The root cause being the federal laws governing involuntary committal for mental healthcare and lack of federal resources for mental healthcare which is super pricy for obvious reasons. In addition are widening income/wealth gap and the temperate climates exacerbate the issue in some places more than others.

So the solution at the state and city levels is to use police to push people that are likelier to cause problems around so they are not comfortable being around, and incarcerating them and keeping them in the system for various offenses.

Then the police and politicians get heat for being prejudiced or biased or unfair, and they relax the rules, and then the problems return, and people will complain about thefts and property crime and etc until it gets bad enough that there is once again political will for a crackdown, and rinse repeat.

Note that I am not saying there are not legitimate prejudices and biases that need to be addressed in the police/judicial system, nor that society should let minor offenses go and make police think about the political ramifications of every interaction they have.

Re:SF's crime debate turns nasty by throwaway894345 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:27AM (#27760308)
While I fully support measures to close the inequality gap and also to improve access to mental health care, I don’t think these things adequately explain why crime has surged. Specifically, access to mental healthcare and crime haven’t deteriorated so significantly in the last ~5 years commensurate with the crime surge.

On the other hand, broad and flat-footed anti-police sentiment has increased and has manifest as either explicit depolicing policies or unofficial pressure on police officers in the field to avoid routine stops and other preventative policing efforts, as well as pressure on DAs to be seen as “soft on crime” (not intending any sort of disparagement with this term). Which isn’t to say that police don’t need reform—I’m one of the 90% of Americans who think some kind of reform is necessary, but perhaps something a little more sophisticated than “defund the police” is in order (better training for police officers, weaken police unions, increase protection in vulnerable communities while increasing funding to other social services, etc)?

As for whether the pendulum will swing too far against crime, when was the last time that happened in SF? I suspect SF’s robust corps of progressives have successfully prevented the pendulum from swinging even to the center for the last decade or two.

Re:SF's crime debate turns nasty by prepend on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @07:58AM (#27760066)
> The root cause being the federal laws governing involuntary committal for mental healthcare and lack of federal resources for mental healthcare which is super pricy for obvious reasons.

I do think this is the root cause of the shoplifting examples in the article. Stealing handbags from Niemen Marcus is, I think, unrelated to mental health issues.

Re:SF's crime debate turns nasty by mc32 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:00AM (#27760088)
Correct.

These people know that you don’t do that in DC without consequences, so they go up to SF.

Re:SF's crime debate turns nasty by lotsofpulp on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:02AM (#27760107)
I know, but that is the pendulum swinging too far trying to correct for perceived prejudices by the police/judicial system. Which I think are rooted in expecting police to be able to deal with mental health issues as if they have the tools to address the crisis.
Re:SF's crime debate turns nasty by bradleyjg on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:24AM (#27760282)
I don’t think street homelessness (and so closing the mental hospitals) can explain everything. The brazen shoplifters and car thieves don’t appear to be predominantly street people.
Re:SF's crime debate turns nasty by AlexTWithBeard on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:45AM (#27760461)
I started writing a long comment about criteria for involuntary commitment... but then realized that it's probably not bipolar schizophrenics who do the shoplifting.
Re:SF's crime debate turns nasty by lotsofpulp on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:55AM (#27760554)
That is not the flow I am trying to illustrate. The flow is that some people find the use of police, jail, and our other judicial/penal systems today to be less than desirable for dealing with certain circumstances and people, but then trying to fix it without the proper solution (since there is no solution at the local level) results in a situation where shoplifting and property crime no longer have consequences which creates an opportunity for bad actors to proliferate.
Re:SF's crime debate turns nasty by AlexTWithBeard on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @09:43AM (#27761023)
Banning hammers, because not everything is a nail?

Oh, yes.

Re:SF's crime debate turns nasty by refurb on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @10:09AM (#27761299)
I predict the pendulum will simply swing too far in both directions.

Yup. People alive today look back the three strikes law and think “how could the voters ever wanted that?”.

But you live long enough and the the cycles start to emerge. If crime gets bad enough in the cities you’ll see a repeat of the 70-90s where law and order was priority #1.