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Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by genmud on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @11:36PM (#27757078)
One thing that you learn quickly when traveling the world is how easily one can go from having a good time with your friends, to being in a shitty prison without food, running water or a phone to let your family know if you are dead or alive.

I have friends travel to interesting places during times of (relative) stability. To paraphrase one of the guys that I know: "When you travel in some of these places, you exist at that time and place, not because you belong there or have a right to be there, but because nobody has decided you shouldn't."

I have always kept that in the back of my mind when traveling, even in places that I would consider first-world. It is certainly something that I would keep in the forefront of my mind if I lived or worked in a place like CN. It is always interesting to watch people who push the boundary, become emboldened and forget that they aren't the ones making the decision for their fates.

I have always thought of CN as one of those countries that wants all the benefits of a western society, with expectations that people will conform, with an implicit "or else".

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by wsc981 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:17AM (#27759071)
Somewhat related, this is an interesting story of the escape of a Western guy with his Chinese wife and child from China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7CPqROtanA

He did have to escape on short notice after he shared or said something on his YouTube channel that offended the Chinese government (IIRC).

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by tjpnz on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:36AM (#27759480)
Similar thing happened with ADVChina. He had spent years trying to portray the positive aspects of Chinese society but was increasingly targeted by police. He ended up leaving after the harassment became too much.
Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by pas on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @07:30PM (#27766953)
They spent years biking together in China. Their Instagram and YT is very interesting (and the comments are full of blind China apologists).
Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by Jochim on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:33AM (#27759472)
It's kind of intriguing to me because, as a member of a western society, I think we place largely the same expectations on people to conform, the only difference is in how the enforcement is applied.

In many countries, cities, and neighbourhoods in "the west" if you aren't white you experience exactly the kind of insecurity you describe elsewhere. There are plenty of incidents where non-white residents are arrested while working on their own car, or entering their own home because a neighbour saw them and decided they did not or could not belong. There was a rather notable protest movement just last year that had it's roots in a group of people not being allowed to freely exist in the same way as the rest of society.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by mmdoda on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @11:57AM (#27762550)
I find this to be completely untrue. Anecdotally, my friends from South Sudan, who aren't white, tell me that the unsafest neighborhoods in my country are better than the safest in theirs.

This is the same sentiment that I get from most non-white foreigners.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by Jochim on Thursday July 08, 2021 @08:35AM (#27771130)
Generally things are "better" here but that doesn't mean the problems don't exist. They might just be less severe or be expressed in a different manner. "Exactly" was probably the wrong word to use. The sentiment I'm arguing against is the idea that "these things don't happen here", which I find is typically an excuse to ignore or downplay the cases where it does happen.
Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by owlmirror on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:59AM (#27759608)
>In many countries, cities, and neighbourhoods in "the west" if you aren't white you experience exactly the kind of insecurity you describe elsewhere. There are plenty of incidents where non-white residents are arrested while working on their own car, or entering their own home because a neighbour saw them and decided they did not or could not belong.

Does this go beyond anecdotes and are that quantifiable occurrences that are disproportionally happening in the west vs. other countries? Because I know of many contrary anecdotes of Non-European people, living very safely and without such concerns in western countries.

In my opinion I'd tend say that modern western societies are the most safe and welcoming societies for foreigners, were you face the least amount of discrimination as an outsider.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by Jochim on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @09:32AM (#27760908)
My point wasn't that these things happen disproportionately in the west. It was that to imply, as the GP did, that these issues do not exist or are not problems in the west is both incorrect and damaging.

Corruption is a pretty good example. When it occurs non-western country it's called out and criticised but when speaking about western countries we dress it up in fancy clothes. In the U.S. it's "Lobbying", in the UK it's "Cronyism" or "Chumocracy". By redefining the terms, corruption becomes something that only happens elsewhere, in less "civilised" places, and not something that has to be dealt with at home.

Labour could be another, there's a huge lack of perspective in discussions around foreign labour standards where we will condemn the working conditions in China or India while ignoring the fact that these people are experiencing those conditions working in the factories of some of the wealthiest companies in the west.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by frollo on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:08AM (#27760160)
> In my opinion I'd tend say that modern western societies are the most safe and welcoming societies for foreigners, were you face the least amount of discrimination as an outsider.

I think it depends on so many factors that you shouldn't make a blanket statement in any direction. You can say both things on different areas of the same city.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by mc32 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @11:18AM (#27762087)
Of this were a big problem in the west, we’d see a pause in immigration to the west.

People learn fast if things are not good. If you’re targeted, if you’re harassed.

I don’t mean people who have very little choice (their home countries are so bad they have to leave), but I mean middle class families who have alternatives. They still choose the west as a destination by choice.

I think this is a reasonable proxy indicating life isn’t bad for foreigners immigrating to the west. If it were bad, they’d choose to stay home or a neighboring country that has similar culture.

Also, regarding travel. Most people experience their travel to other countries as middle class visitors, not as lower class visitors. Take someone from a first world country who didn't go beyond high school who earns <$25,000 and put them in one of these places and see how far their skills take them.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by Jochim on Thursday July 08, 2021 @09:00AM (#27771359)
I didn't intend to speak to the relative scale of the problems, merely that we shouldn't ignore that it's still a problem and we should still be trying to improve. My original wording wasn't great at conveying that.
Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by throw0101a on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:14AM (#27760205)
> […] I think we place largely the same expectations on people to conform, the only difference is in how the enforcement is applied.

Yeonmi Park, a defector (escapee?) from North Korea, was surprised in what could and could not be said in the US when she went to university:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7CPqROtanA

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Yeon-mi

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by yaitsyaboi on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:46AM (#27768559)
North Korean defectors are really fascinating. I just can't wrap my head around her claim that what I perceive as a kind of over the top righteousness on the campus of elite American universities is comparable to--let alone worse than--North Korea.

Her father was literally sentenced to a labor camp. How can that possibly compare to anything you'd run into at Columbia. Yeah, it's annoying that people wouldn't cut her a break with the pronoun stuff as she was learning english. But again, that's worse than North Korea?

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by Phaedor on Thursday July 08, 2021 @06:21AM (#27770174)
One adjacent example of this is the case of Sirous Asgari, the Iranian scientist who refused to spy on Iran for America. What happened to him is really a disgrace and something one would think could not happen in America.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/09/21/the-man-who-re...

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by Smithalicious on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @12:37PM (#27763038)
What about all the neighborhoods that are dangerous to white people? I white person has a higher chance of getting in serious danger in a majority black ghetto than a black person would in virtually any majority white neighborhood.
Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by Jochim on Thursday July 08, 2021 @08:50AM (#27771260)
The difference is that a white person in a black neighbourhood will be put in danger by the criminal activity of private citizens. A black person in a white neighbourhood will be put in danger by an agent of the state who is purportedly responsible for dealing with criminality. The white person will have the backing of the state when seeking justice while the black person will be fighting the state.

In terms of the typical outcomes, in the first case those people are rightly considered criminals and will be held accountable if caught. In the second there is usually no accountability even though we know who carried out the action.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by null_shift on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @12:57PM (#27763279)
why do you refer to the black “ghetto” vs the white “neighborhood”?
Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by Smithalicious on Monday July 12, 2021 @01:54AM (#27807482)
To make my claim more specific (not all black neighborhoods are dangerous, just ghettos) and because a far larger proportion of primarily-black neighborhoods are ghettos than primarily-white neighborhoods (since there are far fewer black people and they're a disadvantaged demographic)
Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by bluthund on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:00AM (#27760078)
Nonsense. This is the narrative brought about by critical theory, but it is so far from true

The only people who feel this way are people who have been scared into it by reading too much of this garbage

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by ipaddr on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @11:36AM (#27762288)
In many cases things are worse locally and they move because of it. The targetting in America is generally with black people. You rarely hear about the east Indian family being pulled. You often hear about people going out of their way to support immigrants (at least in Canada).
Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by kangaroozach on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @03:53AM (#27758511)
Reminds me of Danny Fenster who is a US journalist being held in Myanmar. His family went many weeks without any sign that he was even alive an the US government seems utterly powerless, or disinterested in flexing their power. He is totally at the mercy of a rogue newly installed government.
Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by ca01an on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:21AM (#27759098)
Most people are more likely to end up in prison in the USA than they are in China
Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by danielrpa on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:30AM (#27760332)
It's incredible how fast people on HN jump to false equivalencies when comparing US and China. The mere fact you can criticize the government in this forum without the fear of being brought in for questioning should give you some hints on how both systems compare.

Criticize the US as much as you want (after all, you can do it), and the US government DOES deserve a good deal of criticism, but saying that the countries are somehow equivalent in the consequences for anti-state speech is laughable.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by MattGaiser on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:23AM (#27759106)
But not because some government official suddenly decided they should.

In the USA, the rules are known well in advance. There might be questionable rules, but POTUS cannot decree a rule into existence and put a bag over your head an hour later.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by CJefferson on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:43AM (#27759221)
People who spent years in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base (or are still there, after 20 years, without being charged) might disagree with you on that.
Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by MattGaiser on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:56AM (#27759294)
> In the USA

What the US does to non-citizens outside the USA is a messy area. Inside the USA? The rules are far more clear.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by Jochim on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:42AM (#27759509)
On an individual basis the rules are often vague and selectively enforced.

As a collective institution there was the whole Edward Snowden thing where he pointed out that the NSA had definitely not been following those rules and no one who knew what they were doing seemed particularly keen on stopping them.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by InspiredIdiot on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @09:34AM (#27760934)
That is a big problem but kindof a separate issue. He may have been targeted because he was critical of the government but it's really hard to argue that he didn't do anything against the law. Maybe he should have whistleblower protection but his case isn't as simple as persecution solely for being critical of the government which is what this thread seems to be about.
Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by Jochim on Thursday July 08, 2021 @08:18AM (#27770966)
My point wasn't the treatment of Snowden but rather that the claim that:

> Inside the USA? The rules are far more clear.

Is false. The NSA was/is carrying out a mass spying operation over a number of years and involving hundreds of people that directly contravenes those rules.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by thebooktocome on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @11:23AM (#27762151)
> The rules are far more clear.

Can you clarify this? As far as I'm aware, the US govt can dispute anyone's citizenship without recourse, even if you're holding e.g., a valid passport.

From 2016: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/22/504031635...

As far as I know, nothing in this article has changed.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by TMWNN on Thursday July 08, 2021 @03:03PM (#27776368)
>Can you clarify this? As far as I'm aware, the US govt can dispute anyone's citizenship without recourse, even if you're holding e.g., a valid passport.

Your cite does not support your claim. If Palma had ever had a US passport (expired or not), his situation would never have occurred in the first place.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by orbifold on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:00AM (#27759316)
If you piss off the US enough you will become suicidal in a Spanish prison.
Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by jwr on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:45AM (#27759239)
> But not because some government official suddenly decided they should

You mean like this guy, for example? https://www.npr.org/2020/12/11/945565473/u-s-clears-for-rele...

Or the (by now, likely in the thousands) people killed by US drone attacks?

I don't want to play the whataboutism card, but let's not pretend that the US is somehow exceptional here. In fact, I'd consider it one of the more troubling countries, with the kindappings, Guantanamo, and the "grey area" on the borders, where your constitutional rights do not apply.

The world is not a nice place, and the US is no exception, unfortunately.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by MattGaiser on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:58AM (#27759308)
The USA is exceptional in that that stuff does not happen to citizens within its borders.
Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by Aeolos on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:58AM (#27759605)
Is that really the case?

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

"Police violence is a leading cause of death for young men in the United States. Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56834733

According to this ^, the police in the US is 3.5x more likely to kill civilians compared to other developed nations. (It would be interesting to find a world-wide comparison here.)

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by Leparamour on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @12:22PM (#27762854)
>"Police violence is a leading cause of death for young men in the United States. Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police."

These soundbytes usually (intentionally) omit half of the story. For example, how many police officers are being killed in encounters with black men?

And how many less lethal (for black men) encounters would there be with black men not attacking officers or third persons but actually complying with police orders?

The greatest danger to a black person's life only second to coronary diseases is another black person.

It's these kind of questions which grievance studies activists and journalists never (dare to) ask.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by Aeolos on Thursday July 08, 2021 @04:17AM (#27769435)
You are being downvoted because you failed to do bring any evidence to support your assertions and instead resorted to conspiratorial thinking.

Unlike your claim that "journalist never (dare to) ask", the numbers of violence against police are well studied, published and easily available with a search. Had you done that, you'd have realized that your basic premise is wrong: violence _by_ police is significantly higher than violence _against_ police.

Indeed, police work is _less_ dangerous than e.g. farming, construction, trucking and sales.

https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfar0020.pdf

Edit: if you are interested, check also this https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-23/how-da...

Logging, fishing, aircraft, roofing, recycling, even landscaping is more dangerous than police work in terms of fatalities. Yet you don't hear politicians complain about the dangers of landscaping work, do you? Why do you think is that?

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by arthur_sav on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:45AM (#27759238)
Of course not.

They'll just fabricate lies, label you a terrorist or a "Russian spy" and put you in prison.

Re:What really happened to Jack Ma? by dmos62 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:30AM (#27759152)
We don't have reliable prison and sentencing data for China.