News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:PID Controller for controlling the number of servers in a... by jameshart on Sunday July 04, 2021 @06:37PM (#27733186)
PID is a damn sight more sophisticated than most datacenter dynamic capacity control algorithms - most autoscalers barely even qualify as ‘bang bang’ controllers - they detect a need for more capacity, and add nodes at some artificially constrained rate until capacity is reached or they hit a max cluster size limit. Even rudimentary control theory is an improvement.

Of course the problem with applying PID to server capacity is that compute resources come in discrete chunks that are slow to bring online (‘computers’) rather than being a continually variable resource.

Re:PID Controller for controlling the number of servers in a... by whatshisface on Sunday July 04, 2021 @06:50PM (#27733239)
If you have enough of anything it starts acting continuous.
Re:PID Controller for controlling the number of servers in a... by jcalvinowens on Sunday July 04, 2021 @09:49PM (#27734051)
> Most autoscalers barely even qualify as ‘bang bang’ controllers - they detect a need for more capacity, and add nodes at some artificially constrained rate until capacity is reached or they hit a max cluster size limit. Even rudimentary control theory is an improvement.

Why do you think PID is an improvement here? IMHO the bang bang approach is preferable because it behaves extremely predictably. Operationally, knowing how the system will react to extreme conditions might be more valuable than being a little more optimal.

Re:PID Controller for controlling the number of servers in a... by ori_b on Sunday July 04, 2021 @11:21PM (#27734371)
> Operationally, knowing how the system will react to extreme conditions might be more valuable than being a little more optimal.

With today's systems, we typically have neither.

Re:PID Controller for controlling the number of servers in a... by jhgb on Monday July 05, 2021 @03:20AM (#27735403)
> Operationally, knowing how the system will react to extreme conditions might be more valuable than being a little more optimal.

But there's a lot of theory around PID control to show how PID control systems behave under all sorts of circumstances. Hell, there's even things that are mathematically provable, like for example stability, which I strongly suspect you may often not even be able to reason about in case of many an ad-hoc systems like the ones GP is talking about.

Re:PID Controller for controlling the number of servers in a... by srean on Sunday July 04, 2021 @11:20PM (#27734367)
Parent's point is that they are worse than bang-bang controller.

Its not very clear from your comment but are you claiming that PIDs are not predictable ?

Re:PID Controller for controlling the number of servers in a... by jcalvinowens on Monday July 05, 2021 @12:27AM (#27734625)
Huh? Parent was arguing in favor of it: "PID is a damn sight more sophisticated", "even rudimentary control theory is an improvement".

Yes, PID upset is a real problem when things start going sideways, as they tend to occasionally in the real world.

Re:PID Controller for controlling the number of servers in a... by jameshart on Monday July 05, 2021 @01:22PM (#27739998)
My point was more that the idea of applying control theory is an improvement over doing what amounts to bang-bang control without really thinking about it.

Not that PID is better, not that bang-bang is better, just that.. learning from control theory is likely a fruitful direction to go in.

Most autos along algorithms have heuristically hacked hysteresis built in to stop them oscillating between provisioning a node, dropping a node, provisioning, dropping. That kind of threshold tuning stuff is ripe for replacement with something more rigorous. PID control is an example of a rigorous way to solve that in continuous control. It likely doesn’t directly work for capacity, but control theory in general does have better answers for this kind of thing than just PID.

Re:PID Controller for controlling the number of servers in a... by jcalvinowens on Monday July 05, 2021 @01:36PM (#27740112)
Ok, I can agree with that.
Re:PID Controller for controlling the number of servers in a... by rualca on Monday July 05, 2021 @02:05AM (#27735045)
> Huh? Parent was arguing in favor of it: "PID is a damn sight more sophisticated", "even rudimentary control theory is an improvement".

You clearly failed to read (and quote) what OP said, and therefore understand his point.

Please pay attention to OP's point that PID is more sophisticated with the current state of affairs, which don't even qualify as bang bang controllers.

The OP quite clearly and unambiguously stated that "Even rudimentary control theory is an improvement."

Just because you feel the need to one-up other people's work that does not mean it is ok you distort and strawman the points they made.

Re:PID Controller for controlling the number of servers in a... by nine_k on Sunday July 04, 2021 @08:23PM (#27733703)
I suspect that datacenters do not implement PID not because nobody there is aware of control theory. I suspect they tried and decided against it.
Re:PID Controller for controlling the number of servers in a... by oneplane on Sunday July 04, 2021 @08:55PM (#27733837)
I think Hanlon's razor applies; most people in the datacenters have not heard of control theory whenever I interacted with them.

The ones that did were usually from an academic background and might have had some side-track with robotics, industrial control software development or just plain theoretical studies.

I suppose it's not as much that nobody wants it, or nobody wants to know about it, but there is so much else to be known that it might not 'fit' when assembling study materials or in-house learning systems.

Maybe the best way to integrate control theory into the datacenter (or cloud) from an ops perspective would be starting out by getting some traction with control systems in general fist, just like a general software engineer might have had some software architecture and patterns for one or two semesters.

Re:PID Controller for controlling the number of servers in a... by j2kun on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:56PM (#27817492)
I work in datacenter optimization and we're aware of control theory.
Re:PID Controller for controlling the number of servers in a... by lmilcin on Sunday July 04, 2021 @06:47PM (#27733230)
I guess progress must be made in small steps... sigh...