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Re:Apple and Intel first to use TSMC 3nm by tyingq on Saturday July 03, 2021 @08:05AM (#27721052)
It does, though, reduce heat, right? Which ultimately is more cores per socket. Which hits the thing that actually matters...price/performance.
Re:Apple and Intel first to use TSMC 3nm by Nokinside on Saturday July 03, 2021 @08:33AM (#27721194)
Yes. But that's a huge decline compared to even recent past.

Performance increases from generation to generation used to be much faster. TSMC's N16 to N7 was still doubling or almost doubling performance and price/performance over the long term. N5 to N3 is just barely single digits.

Every fab generation is more expensive than in the past. Soon every GIGAFAB costs $30 billion while technology risk increaseses.

Re:Apple and Intel first to use TSMC 3nm by Robotbeat on Saturday July 03, 2021 @12:19PM (#27722682)
That’s true, but because Moore’s Law has slowed, you’ll be able to amortize that $30 billion over a longer time.
Re:Apple and Intel first to use TSMC 3nm by ac29 on Saturday July 03, 2021 @04:16PM (#27724546)
> because Moore’s Law has slowed

Not sure that is really true based on the data. Remember, Moore's law says the number of transistors in an IC doubles every two years, which doesnt necessarily mean a doubling of performance. For a while in the 90's, performance was also doubling every two years, but that was largely due to frequency scaling.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Moore%27...

Re:Apple and Intel first to use TSMC 3nm by Robotbeat on Saturday July 03, 2021 @05:44PM (#27725177)
To be precise, Moore’s Law says the number of transistors per unit cost doubles (every two years). https://newsroom.intel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2018/...

A lot of the new processes have not had the same cost reductions. Also, some increase in transistor count is due to physically larger chips. Also, you have “Epyc Rome” on that graph, which actually isn’t a single chip but uses chiplets.

Re:Apple and Intel first to use TSMC 3nm by analognoise on Saturday July 03, 2021 @01:40PM (#27723346)
Yeah and after you have a working $30B fab, how many people are going to follow you to build one?

The first one built will get cheaper to run every year - it will pay for itself by the time a second company even tries to compete. The first person to the "final" node will have a natural, insurmountable monopoly.

You could extract rent basically forever after that point.

Re:Apple and Intel first to use TSMC 3nm by atq2119 on Sunday July 04, 2021 @03:26AM (#27727895)
I don't think we'll see a final node in our lifetimes. Improvements are slowing down and will become a trickle, but that doesn't mean research stops entirely.

Consider other mature technology, like the internal combustion engine. ICEs have been improved continuously, though the changes have become marginal as the technology matured. However, if research and improvements on ICEs ends entirely it's not because the technology has been fully explored but because they're obsoleted by electric cars.

Re:Apple and Intel first to use TSMC 3nm by fshbbdssbbgdd on Saturday July 03, 2021 @04:49PM (#27724793)
I thought the drivers of cost are lots of design work, patents, trade secrets etc. involved with each process. If there’s a “final” node, those costs should decrease over time and eventually become more of a commodity.
Re:Apple and Intel first to use TSMC 3nm by labawi on Saturday July 03, 2021 @04:08PM (#27724468)
That's only true if the supply satisfies demand.