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Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by marcus_holmes on Friday July 02, 2021 @08:46AM (#27710780)
You assume that all applicants are of equal attainment, ability, and motivation.

However, women have to fight an in-built discrimination. While men are more forced into work because our gender role expects it of us.

Thus, women who are candidates for promotion are likely to be more motivated and more ambitious than their male counterparts - they've had to fight harder against more obstacles to get to that point.

I see this in the gender balance of programmers. Female programmers have had to fight against a constant discouragement from pretty much everyone in their lives, while male programmers have had nothing but encouragement. So it's not surprising that female programmers tend (on average) to be better; they're more motivated, they really want this, and that's usually because they're good at it (if they weren't they'd have given up earlier).

Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by skinkestek on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:21AM (#27711879)
> I see this in the gender balance of programmers. Female programmers have had to fight against a constant discouragement from pretty much everyone in their lives, while male programmers have had nothing but encouragement.

As a male growing up in the 80ies and 90ies in Europe I must say this must be somewhere else.

If this was the case then there would be some merit to the idea of "male privilege".

From what I saw encouragement came in two forms:

- generally for everyone

- and in addition, specifically for girls

I.e. I've seen activities for "kids who code" or "girls who code" but never for "boys who code".

I also have some personal experience regarding encouragement: from I was a young boy and until I had almost finished my Bachelors degree I was more than once discouraged from IT and encouraged to get a "real job" so either I was very special or the idea that boys get "nothing but encouragement" is plain false

Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by pyuser583 on Friday July 02, 2021 @05:34PM (#27717197)
The most powerful type of privilege a person can have is access to good advice.
Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by skinkestek on Saturday July 03, 2021 @10:25AM (#27721810)
Do you mean I should have quit my Bachelors degree in IT?
Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by pyuser583 on Saturday July 03, 2021 @12:03PM (#27722553)
Sorry, but I don’t understand what you are seeking with this question.

Did your BA in IT limit your access to good advice? Did it contradict the good advice you received?

I don’t see the conflict between a BA in IT and good advice.

Could you maybe ask the question again in a different way?

Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by skinkestek on Sunday July 04, 2021 @03:59AM (#27728019)
I'll try:

I wrote about being a boy and getting what I think is bad advice.

You comment "The most powerful type of privilege a person can have is access to good advice."

I wonder if you think that what I got is good advice.

(BTW: BSc, not BA :-)

Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by gedy on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:42AM (#27712950)
> while male programmers have had nothing but encouragement

I really hate this stereotype as growing up in 80s "liking computers" was this thing only "nerds" liked in my area. Getting called a nerd was not at all positive and a derogatory slur. I loved computers at my own (social) peril.

Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by seattle_spring on Friday July 02, 2021 @07:04PM (#27717942)
Yep. In elementary school I was called a computer nerd every day. Want to know who usually flung that insult? Girls. Typically ones that would say "ew, math is gross."

Now they're the ones posting the 70 cents on the dollar misinformation to their FB feed.

Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by ksec on Sunday July 04, 2021 @04:57AM (#27728226)
Exactly. The narrative changed when iPhone / Smartphone took over the world. Now everyone knows what is an "App". And somehow Silicon Valley took over the world. Mainstream Media has all sort of Tech reporting in their front page. Stock investment are also dominated by tech. All of a sudden software programming is cool and you get some sort of social status with it.

But in the 80s/ 90s picking up a Pascal or Delphi book was about the dumbest thing you do in social circle.

Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by marcus_holmes on Sunday July 04, 2021 @06:34PM (#27733175)
I get that. But talk to a female colleague about her experience with it. They get not only the "nerd" label but also the whole "choose something that's feminine, no boy wants to marry a girl smarter than him" thing. It's fucked up.
Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by otto2 on Friday July 02, 2021 @04:10PM (#27716256)
Me too. I suffered few years being called "Clive" and "Sinclair" by bullish peers.
Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by ectopod on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:43AM (#27712145)
In the UK there is an often-repeated statistic: the 20% of girls who take A-level physics outperform the 40% of boys who take it.

And of course they do! It's like saying a team comprised of footballers from the top division will beat a team comprised of footballers from the top two divisions.

The few women who go into tech or board rooms or whatever will typically be the women who are good at it, and they will typically outperform the larger cohort of (necessarily) more average men.

You don't need tales of struggle or diversity to explain this. Minority groups will tend to perform better.

Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by marcus_holmes on Sunday July 04, 2021 @06:38PM (#27733192)
You're so close! If the majority group and minority group have equal distribution of ability in a subject, why are the minority a minority?

Women are 55% of the population. Why aren't they 55% of tech workers? Why are only the 20% who are really good at it working in tech?

Saying "the minority are always going to be better" doesn't explain why. And the why is really important.

Pro tip: talk to women who would like to work in tech but aren't for an answer.

Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by ttt0 on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:05AM (#27712438)
You say you don't need discrimination to explain it, but your explanation assumes discrimination ie. you have to be really damn good in order to even have a chance as a woman. There is another explanation, the distribution of IQ between men and women:

> Another factor affecting perception may be distribution of IQ ... Although [men and women] are on average the same, the people at the very top and the very bottom of the IQ bell curve are more likely to be men. That is a pattern that we see in the university setting, with men either being at the very top of the class or at the bottom.

https://www.newsweek.com/men-women-and-iq-87117

Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by Zababa on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:37AM (#27712874)
You also see a similar situation with "places in society". The majority of billionaires are men, but the majority of people in prison are men too. Women in general seem to have a more "stable" place in society compared to men. It seems harder for them to climb higher but also harder for them to fall completly at the bottom. If I wanted to sum it up, it would be something like "the glass ceiling comes with a glass floor". This is just my speculation though, and not in any way a judgment of value.
Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by rowanG077 on Saturday July 03, 2021 @09:48AM (#27721601)
An important point here is that this glass ceiling or glass floor is only relevant to talk about on the level of all women. It has no bearing on an individual.
Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by ectopod on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:56AM (#27713143)
I'm not attempting to explain the under-representation of minorities. I'm explaining why minorities in teams will naturally perform better than average.
Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by throwaway894345 on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:02AM (#27712410)
> However, women have to fight an in-built discrimination. While men are more forced into work because our gender role expects it of us.

I’m very skeptical about this. Firstly, the popular studies that purport to show bias against females are variously flawed (including using old data from other fields) but also because women have done very well in other fields at other times which were much more hostile to them (medicine and law, for example) than tech. Similarly, women do well in tech in countries that have much more gender inequality than we have in the West (indeed, there’s an inverse correlation between a country’s gender equality and its female representation in technology). All of this suggests that discrimination isn’t responsible for as much of the gender gap in tech as we suspect.

Re:Google reports soaring attrition among Black women by rocqua on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:12AM (#27712548)
> Thus, women who are candidates for promotion are likely to be more motivated and more ambitious than their male counterparts - they've had to fight harder against more obstacles to get to that point.

This is very much the case if promotions are done without considering gender diversity. This can be compensated for by considering gender diversity when looking at applicants. However, that compensation can overshoot. This is especially likely if, for internal promotions, a goal of diversity is set that is too high compared to the total number of women already in the company.

That specific overshoot, caused by having diversity goals that are too ambitious given the number of women in the company, is what my comment was about. I raised the issue because women have raised it to me. Specifically when discussing blanket boardroom diversity quotas that were being considered by politicians in the Netherlands. Such quotas are more likely to cause this specific scenario, because they are made without consideration for the fraction of women working in the company, or even industry.