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Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by phillmv on Friday July 15, 2011 @04:15PM (#2768903)
I wonder; is it not increasingly obvious that rating agencies are fraudulent by nature/rent-seekers writ large?
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by tptacek on Friday July 15, 2011 @04:24PM (#2768927)
Maybe, but BRK and the US Treasury are meaningfully AAA. There is clearly a class of AAA risk that means something, and a (far larger) lower tier of AAA risk that merely rides the coattails.
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by phillmv on Friday July 15, 2011 @04:40PM (#2768998)
Right. I think that overall that's correct - for all intents and purposes it's effectively impossible for the US Treasury to run out of dollars. But the way the incentives for agencies are set up makes me think we're begging to be lied to.

Mind you, despite all this you can have a serious news piece of "someone from Moody's" claiming that they might be forced to lower the US' rating http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14142621 - which frankly just sounds all kinds of ridiculous.

Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by mdda on Friday July 15, 2011 @08:38PM (#2769710)
Why ridiculous? The treasury cannot, by law, issue more than a certain amount of debt. The politicians may change the law - but that's a vote that's yet to have been taken. Once upon a time, it would have been unthinkable for Japan to have had a lower credit rating than AAA.

Also, the US owes money in currencies other than $, which the Treasury doesn't have the power to print.

Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by ChuckMcM on Friday July 15, 2011 @04:37PM (#2768984)
Guess we'll know whether or not US Treasuries are meaningfully AAA in the next couple of weeks :-)
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by jfoutz on Friday July 15, 2011 @05:55PM (#2769292)
Really? I'm not real enthusiastic about dragging politics into this, but i think the US Treasury is one elected religious fanatic away from declaring intrest usurious and declining to pay. "Fiscal Responsibility" seems to last until about 5 minutes after any given election.

I'm not saying the probability is big, but is 1% an unbelievable number? Just for reference, back in 2000 what odds would you have put on the US electing a black president before 2050? Back then, I thought that number was very close to zero.

I'm (obviously) not an analyst. I'm baffled at how they can predict return with much confidence 10 years out.

Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by gregpilling on Saturday July 16, 2011 @09:42AM (#2770723)
Are you envisioning a real version of Nehemiah Scudder? In the Heinlein books, he is elected in 2012 ...
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by Someone on Friday July 15, 2011 @04:43PM (#2769010)
The US Treasury is not, by definition, AAA. It can print money at will, but it cannot guarantee that that money will have value.
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by _delirium on Friday July 15, 2011 @04:45PM (#2769021)
Credit ratings are only supposed to predict risk of default; if a loan denominated in dollars is repaid in dollars, the loan is satisfied. They don't have to also predict what the real value of that repayment will be in other currencies.
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by encoderer on Friday July 15, 2011 @04:52PM (#2769044)
What we're talking about is: What is the risk of default of the tbills issued by the US treasury. It's conventionally considered that AAA means "1 in 10,000" chance of default.

Considering that tbills are issued with "the full faith and credit" of the United States and that it's against the US Constitution to default on them, the agencies have historically rated the debt as AAA.

And yes, technically, the US could not default and still pay back worthless bonds by deliberately hyper-inflating the currency.

Doing so would also make worthless all of the private debts demoninated in US Dollars and effectively destroy the US Economy.

While it's certainly possible that could happen, it's quite remote. Quite.

Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by michaeldhopkins on Friday July 15, 2011 @05:51PM (#2769275)
The ratings agencies DO factor inflation risk into their ratings, and are on record multiple times publicly citing inflation risk as a reason. The ratings agencies know that default risk is not the only type of bond investment risk and they rate accordingly -- their track record might be questionable but they're not stupid. You are absolutely right with this comment.

For those who don't understand what's the problem with inflation so long as the bond is repaid, imagine you buy a 10-year, $1,000,000 dollar bond paying 10% interest from the Weimar Republic in 1918. You get $100,000 per year. By 1923 the Mark is worth a trillion times less than it was when you bought your bond, so the resale value is now the 1918 equivalent of $.000001 and the annual interest income is $.0000001. You complain about this to your friend, and he points out that Weimar is still rated AAA because they obviously can print an infinite amount of money to meet their obligations. Do you feel consoled? What kind of interest rate would you require to consider buying another bond?

The United States most likely won't see this kind of inflation because it doesn't have the problems Germany had, but it could certainly see enough to drop the rating to a low A if things really got out of hand.

Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by joe_the_user on Friday July 15, 2011 @04:53PM (#2769049)
This argument is fallacious (not that its not kicked around a lot).

The point is that the US treasury will pay its debt. The value of the dollar simply a different question.

By your argument (and apparently, some of the rating agencies'), a supposedly necessary downgrading of treasure bonds would require the downgrade of every existing dollar denominated bond in the world - ie, nearly every AAA bond. Oddly enough, Moody's isn't threatening to do this.

Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by uvdiv on Friday July 15, 2011 @04:45PM (#2769018)
Isn't all of its debt dollar-denominated?

edit: Now that I think about, it isn't. They have inflation-indexed bonds as well. The more they print money, they bigger their debt grows!

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/products/prod_tips_glanc...

Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by djcapelis on Friday July 15, 2011 @05:39PM (#2769239)
Yes, but which agency determines the rate of inflation? :)
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by mdda on Friday July 15, 2011 @08:40PM (#2769721)
At the end of the day, politicians could mandate that the government statisticians lie about the inflation rate (make it artificially low to lower CPI-index bonds payout rate).

But the currency markets would not be so easily fooled.

Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by phillmv on Friday July 15, 2011 @04:53PM (#2769048)
That's a meaningless statement. The US holds debts denominated in dollars. If it can print money at will, by definition it cannot default.

You would be correct if they held debts denominated in other currencies, like virtually every other country in the planet.

Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by Someone on Friday July 15, 2011 @06:17PM (#2769357)
Where did I make any claim related to that? The only remark I made was that, "entity X can print money at will" does not imply "entity X has AAA status", as the comment I replied to seemed to imply.

I did not check this, but Zimbabwe definitely did not have an AAA rating in, say, 2008.

Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by gaius on Saturday July 16, 2011 @03:15AM (#2770310)
There's nothing rent-seeking about it; anyone can start a ratings agency. All Moody's et al have is what we would now call "mindshare" . It's no more rent seeking than say the Met Office having a monopoly on weather forecasting...
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by pessimizer on Saturday July 16, 2011 @05:52PM (#2771899)
It's more than mindshare, it's also the fact that the ratings given by NRSROs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationally_Recognized_Statistic... ) are often written into statutes. There are many massive funds that are restricted by legislation from investing money somewhere that Moody's has rated at lower than X, X often being AAA.
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by positr0n on Friday July 15, 2011 @04:20PM (#2768916)
Why do you say that? I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just genuinely curious since I don't know much about the subject.
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by orofino on Friday July 15, 2011 @04:25PM (#2768931)
As the article states and as we found in the recession, there can't possibly be this many AAA rated organizations. I'll give an example at the risk of my memory failing and there being a difference in which exact organization it was: Days before they went bust, GMAC bonds were still AAA rated.
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by gtani on Saturday July 16, 2011 @11:33AM (#2770946)
I believe that until about 1995 there were fewer than 5 bond issuers subject to Chapter 11 proceedings (strategic bankruptcies) that were AAA at the time of the Chapter 11 filing: Texaco and, I think, Manville the asbestos maker. There was also one AAA muni bond that defaulted. There were several cases where issuers like Lilco (Long Island Lighting) were rapidly downgraded from AAA to junk.
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by VladRussian on Friday July 15, 2011 @04:49PM (#2769035)
i guess people either understand "grading on the curve" or not :)

Anyway, seems to be a business opportunity to start issue ratings for AAA papers, as obviously there is a lot of junk AAA out there.

Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by orofino on Friday July 15, 2011 @05:00PM (#2769078)
The documentary "Inside Job" covers why and how the "grading on a curve" happened. I'd recommend it if you're at all interested in this stuff.
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by justincormack on Friday July 15, 2011 @06:24PM (#2769380)
Also, just the amount of issuance will in itself increase the risk, as interest payments are higher.
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by orofino on Friday July 15, 2011 @10:25PM (#2769919)
I don't believe that this inherently true. The market generally revoles around risk, additional returns are possible when taking more risk. Higher rates of issuance just mean that there is more availability and possibly drive the prices down due to supply.

Now, a lower rating would result in a hirer interest, as lower ratings means higher risk (at least in theory, but what this article actually shows is that this isn't the case).

Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by justincormack on Saturday July 16, 2011 @05:28PM (#2771860)
Higher issuance means that the company has higher leverage, which means higher risk. This should of course cut ratings, but might not.
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by prostoalex on Friday July 15, 2011 @05:37PM (#2769228)
Aren't most corporate bonds insured by a third party?
Re:The horrifying AAA debt-issuance chart by justincormack on Friday July 15, 2011 @06:25PM (#2769382)
No that is not generally the case.