News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by an_opabinia on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:30PM (#27684539)
> the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective.

I understand you are making a stylized appeal for liberal political change via violence. China's leadership has peaks and troughs of liberalism, and violence there, in the Soviet Union, Venezuela, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran and in many other places around the world was followed more often by a hardening, not a softening, of daily life.

Violence in Hong Kong would delay liberalization and usher a vicious and oppressive crackdown.

> legitimization strategy for political changes that were already in development before the protest started.

Here you appear to know that the real strategy is waiting. Eventually, Xi will die, and it's more likely than not that his successors will liberalize.

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by bhawks on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @12:07AM (#27684758)
> Here you appear to know that the real strategy is waiting. Eventually, Xi will die, and it's more likely than not that his successors will liberalize.

What leads you to think this will be the case?

The west has been trying to spread liberal democracy for over the past 100 years. It is successful in some places, but not in others. There doesn't seem to be magic formula, and as technology disrupts human interactions it feels like existing liberal democracies are at risk.

I want to share your optimism. Orwell's vision of the future being a boot stomping on a person's head forever feels a little too close to being a reality.

I don't think passively waiting for more benevolent masters is a winning strategy.

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by GordonS on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @04:22AM (#27686238)
> The west has been trying to spread liberal democracy for over the past 100 years. It is successful in some places, but not in others.

I think success largely depends on how democracy arrives - we've seen time and time again that forcing it upon a country (whether by military force or the more skullduggerous, CIA kind of force) is doomed to failure. I believe it needs to come naturally, slowly, over time.

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by wolverine876 on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @12:05PM (#27690192)
It's hard to deliver democracy and freedom by oppressive means; the means undermine the ends.

However, it's also a common error of the privileged to consign the suffering to wait for a slow, gradual process that results in their entire lives passing by, and those of their children and grandchildren, etc.

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:38PM (#27684582)
> Eventually, Xi will die, and it's more likely than not that his successors will liberalize

It is more likely there will be a contest for power.

It could become violent, though that is unlikely. In that event, I see no reason to ensure like-minded Chinese are sufficiently armed, or at the very least informed. China's path changed when Xi installed himself as dictator for life. It's foolish to ignore that seismic shift.

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by skissane on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @02:30AM (#27685579)
I think eventually something is going to break with the CCP system. But that could easily take another 50 years or more. Something many of us will not live to see.

The Chinese government sustains itself in power through economic growth and nationalism. That then leads to the two most likely factors (in my opinion) to lead to its eventual downfall – (i) if economic growth gets replaced by stagnation or even decline; (ii) a national military humiliation, such as if an attempt to conquer Taiwan turns into a costly failure. And I think either or both factors is likely to happen eventually, but still that could be many decades away. 10 or 20 years from now, the CCP will most likely still be going strong.

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by mytailorisrich on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @03:40AM (#27686003)
Nationalism is a reaction of Chinese society that predates the CCP. The CCP is a product of it, not the cause. Indeed they know that they have to show achievements in that area because that's what the people want. As a matter of fact that have actually being successful in that regards when the Nationalists had failed.

On the world stage the focus is on the CCP and China's political regime because it makes selling anti-China campaigns and measures to the public much easier but it is a red herring. If tomorrow the whole of China became a democracy very little to nothing of their key policies and aims would change, the difference would be that the US would have a harder time explaining to us why China is "evil" (the reason being simply that they are getting too powerful for the West).

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by skissane on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @05:15AM (#27686521)
The West and India seem to get along much better than the West and China.

Is that simply because India is weaker? Or is it because India and the West are closer in values? India has a pluralist political system; China doesn't.

(There are of course some doubts about what direction India is going in given the Modi government, but even given those concerns, India still has far more of a pluralist political system than China does – BJP is in opposition in 7 state legislatures. In China, opposition is illegal.)

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by mytailorisrich on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @05:28AM (#27686589)
I'm not sure that the West and India are closer in values than the West and China if you take a comprehensive look. And we could also look at the closeness between India and China vs them and the West. After all, neither of them are Western cultures and they have a long history of interactions.

But this is irrelevant. In general political regimes hardly matter. The US are best friends with some of the most backward and repressive regimes on the planet, and ruthlessly torpedoed democratic regimes.

It's a matter of interests. India is much weaker than China and is not assertive as a global power. It's not a threat. It also shares interests with the West, not least containing China, with fewer competing interests.

I'm sure that India and the Indian understand China and the Chinese when it comes to the struggle of freeing yourself from foreign imperialism and of fighting your corner.

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by skissane on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @06:32AM (#27686922)
> In general political regimes hardly matter. The US are best friends with some of the most backward and repressive regimes on the planet

I think the contemporary US does have a political preference for democratic regimes all else being equal. When the US gets cozy with non-democratic regimes – for example, Middle Eastern states such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States – there is usually some other motivation which is felt as more pressing than the desire for democracy – oil, containment of Iran, keeping Israel safe and secure, fears of religious radicalism and terrorism, the fear that if the general populace were allowed to vote for whatever government they want, they'd elect Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood, etc. It is not that the US doesn't care about democracy at all, it is just that sometimes it cares about other things more.

> India is much weaker than China and is not assertive as a global power

The Chinese government has attempted to interfere with Australian domestic politics [0]. Obviously that upsets the Australian government (and many people in Australia), and sustaining the US-Australia alliance requires that the US take Australian upset seriously. Some Australians find it particularly offensive given China's hypocritical preaching about "non-interference". The Indian government doesn't make any comparable attempts to interfere with the domestic affairs of US allies, which is part of why the US and its allies have much better relations with India than with China.

[0] see e.g https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Dastyari#Chinese_influence... https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/beijing-controls-chi... https://www.csis.org/analysis/countering-chinas-influence-op...

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by starfallg on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @05:54AM (#27686713)
>If tomorrow the whole of China became a democracy very little to nothing of their key policies and aims would change

No idea why you would say that. China's policy focus would immediately change. Domestically it can no longer afford to focus solely on middle/upper-class growth due to the need to appease the majority of the population still living on low wages. The transparency of the decision making would also cause a lot of domestic policies to be revisited. Currently these decisions are made with the public in the dark. That would no longer be acceptable in a democracy.

On foreign policy and the geopolitical front, China will almost certainly pursue a reset with their neighbours. Whether this results in closer cooperation with the west, or continued antagonism remains to be seen. The Chinese military isn't in the same position as the USSR back in the 90s, and China will not inherit the position as the superpower heading the communist regimes. In any case, it will translate to real changes in how China deals with border issues and military expansion in the South China Sea.

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by mytailorisrich on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @06:33AM (#27686933)
> No idea why you would say that.

I was focussing on foreign policy and geopolitics, which really hasn't changed much since before the PRC.

For instance their policy in the South China Sea is not something dreamt up by the CCP. The "9-dash line" predates the CCP and the PRC. It dates back to the ROC and as such is still the official policy in Taiwan as well (they keep quiet because they are too weak and don't want to piss off neighbours). What's happened is that China is no longer weak and is now able to reassert itself. In a democratic China it's almost certain that nothing would change in the South China Sea, and that has the full support of the Chinese public.

> Whether this results in closer cooperation with the west

This would not because, as I mentioned, the political regime is a red herring here. The antagonisms are caused by China's growing strength and power. China asserts its interests, which are not aligned with the West's. This is not caused by the CCP, this is the profound geopolitical reality.

What's happening is that a superpower that is not Western (in a general sense of European, Christian culture) is appearing, this is more profound than political regimes, which are actually quite superficial. This has not happened for centuries. People have been conditioned to believe that everyone will align with the West and that being a democracy means aligning with the US, but why would that be? That's just propaganda dating from the Cold War, really.

> it can no longer afford to focus solely on middle/upper-class growth due to the need to appease the majority of the population still living on low wages

They are already doing a lot to "appease" the poorest. Economic growth has benefited them a lot and the government is also doing more to alleviate growing inequalities because they know very well that they have to. They are certainly not focussing on "middle/upper-class growth".

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by starfallg on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @07:42AM (#27687330)
You asserted that key policies will not change. Policy entails a course of action, specifying how aims are achieved. So it isn't a matter of the existence of the 9 dash or 11 dash line, but the route that they would go in pursuing it.

I also don't buy the assertion that China's rise as a superpower is somehow more profound than other countries (such as Japan). That just smacks of neo-orientalist sinicism. China's development is modelled on the same export model as Japan's and South Korea's. The difference being whether other advanced economies are willing to absorb and support that model for the remainder of the time that China needs to pivot before succumbing to the middle income trap.

And to your last point, China's GINI coefficient bottomed out in 2015. It has since been rising.

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by mytailorisrich on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @08:15AM (#27687536)
> but the route that they would go in pursuing it.

They are occupying the area to assert their claim. I don't see how that would change. They would not abandon their newly built bases or stop Navy patrols. That would be contrary to their sovereignty claim.

There's a lot of propaganda on this topic and people are falling for it. But the reality is that China is only following a standard, tried and tested, way to assert sovereignty claims: They occupy the place.

The neighbouring countries, including democracies, are doing exactly the same.

> I also don't buy the assertion that China's rise as a superpower is somehow more profound than other countries (such as Japan).

It's obviously different because China is a superpower. Japan and South Korea are not, they are too small, they both fell under the US's dominance, in part by military means. China is directly challenging US's dominance because it's actually larger than the US are and the Us cannot bully them into submission. That's what's new. The US are used to be in charge, like the Europeans used to be before them. A period of absolute Western dominance that started almost 500 years ago is coming to an end.

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by starfallg on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @08:50AM (#27687826)
> They are occupying the area to assert their claim. I don't see how that would change.

They can stop expanding military bases in contested areas for a start. That's already a big change in policy.

> A period of absolute Western dominance that started almost 500 years ago is coming to an end.

What makes China a superpower and Japan not? What economic indicators are you using? Or the UK, France, and India for that matter? Nuclear powers that are able to flatten the population centres of countries on command.

Treating 'The West' as a monolithic entity is just the mirror image of neo-orientalism. In terms of alignment, the ideological chasm between the 1st World / 2nd World during the cold war was larger than the gap between China and the other advanced economies currently. China, having reformed its economy, is more similar to Spain, which resolved a lot of its geopolitical problems after the transition to democracy in the late 70s and early 80s.

The only baggage that China has in terms of geopolitics is the constant navel gazing at the 1800s and Qing's humiliation by the colonial powers. This is a Chinese nationalist narrative that is stoked by the party, but one that doesn't resonate at all with the younger generations.

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by ampdepolymerase on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @10:09AM (#27688732)
The inability to unilaterally impose another Plaza accord speaks volumes.
Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by NhanH on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @12:52AM (#27685000)
Not holding the office for life was relatively new changes in the 90s when Deng Xiaoping stepped down (just a bit, he was the paramount leader despite never hold the two highest positions in China. So the step down from Central Military Commission was mostly ceremonial for the next few years or so.)

If you believe that Xi Jinping has Chinese’s best interest at heart, and he believes that in 2018 China was still under turmoil that only he can manage to get them through, and that he was still (relatively) young even now. Then it is conceivable he would step down in a few years or so in his 70s. Yes, it’s best if your President can’t change the constitution at will, but that has never been China and the situation might not be that big of a shift

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by baybal2 on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @01:29AM (#27685226)
> China's path changed when Xi installed himself as dictator for life. It's foolish to ignore that seismic shift.

It didn't change. It's foolish to not to acknowledge that communists been in power in China all along.

Hu, and Wen were just very convenient fronts the party let the West, and its populace see, while it was pulling strings from behind, and bidding time for the comeback in force.

The West, its politicians, its generals, its intelligence analysts, and its civil society, have been completely bought into that laughably trivial deception.

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by powerapple on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @04:25AM (#27686266)
When was Obama's contain China strategy declared? The only thing the West didn't predict to happen is that with the development of living standard, Chinese people become more supportive of their government. It has shown again only sanction works: make people suffer, then they will overthrown your enemy.
Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by Dah00n on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @05:29AM (#27686595)
In 50 years it's as likely to be China that can sanction the US into submission as the US can sanction China. IMO much more likely. The US (and everyone that follows their contain evil strategy) is shooting themselves in the foot.
Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by powerapple on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @08:19AM (#27687561)
I think many people are seeing the world at where they stand, not taking into consideration of others' position. China and US are at different development stage. The idea of political system is very misleading.

I don't think sanction is right, and I don't think sanction does anything good to countries being sanctioned. And I believe when people's living standard rise, every country will be more democratic and fair.

Is China's political system the reason US is not happy about? I don't think so. It was the same political system 10 years ago, 20 years ago. The reason is that China is stronger now. Unless US has a direct influence on China, it will not tolerate a competitor regardless the political system.

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by AussieWog93 on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @09:55AM (#27688550)
>In 50 years it's as likely to be China that can sanction the US into submission as the US can sanction China.

Neither country can cripple the economy of the other through sanctions without broad international support. I suspect that in the decades to come, neither nation will command the level of respect required to garner said international support.

Re:HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests by AussieWog93 on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @09:50AM (#27688494)
>Eventually, Xi will die, and it's more likely than not that his successors will liberalize.

Based on what evidence?