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Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by woodruffw on Monday June 28, 2021 @01:43PM (#27664957)
At-will employment is the exception, not the rule, in most of the developed world.

It's really only the US that allows employers to unilaterally terminate their employees, and there's ample evidence that companies use it as plausible cover for all sorts of actions that would be illegal (discrimination against protected groups). That, in my book, is indeed something that needs fixing.

But even beyond plausible discrimination: mutual consent is least ambiguous when there's mutual and equal power. No such balance exists in the employer-employed relationship: employees are de facto dependent on their employers for their ability to feed, clothe, and shelter themselves.

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by mc32 on Monday June 28, 2021 @01:53PM (#27665127)
You're only looking at it from one side.

What if I want to quit?

If I can't be fired, then the complement to that would be I cannot quit.

There needs to be a balance where I can quit the company and the company can quit me but where companies don't abuse the system (ex Amazon in this example). I don't think there is a great solution, other than a command economy (but there you are not quite free to change "companies" either).

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by woodruffw on Monday June 28, 2021 @01:57PM (#27665181)
> What if I want to quit?

Is there supposed to be a catch here? If you want to quit, then you should be allowed to quit.

To make it explicit: in the vast majority of the developed world, the individual employee's autonomy is given priority. Companies still have broad discretion when it comes to firing; they're simply held to a higher standard of justification than "we don't like you anymore."

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by barbazoo on Monday June 28, 2021 @01:56PM (#27665176)
Of course you can quit. The power imbalance is mitigated in other countries by making it hard to terminate without cause and on the other side you will have to give more notice when you quit. In Germany when I lived there it wasn't uncommon to have a contract that let you quit your job with 3 months notice or even 3 months from the beginning of the next quarter, things like that. Sure that's inconvenient for some but it's a good trade-off for others.
Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by unicornfinder on Monday June 28, 2021 @03:52PM (#27666974)
Indeed and it's worth mentioning that when every job has that sort of notice period it's less of an issue than you might think. Not to mention there's always room for negotiation with these things.
Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by hef19898 on Monday June 28, 2021 @02:00PM (#27665226)
The same termination periods for both parties, e.g. 3 months to quarters end, or month end. And you are very far from anything even remotely resembling command economy. Unless of course most of the developed free world, excluding the US, is communist command economy in your eyes.
Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by mc32 on Monday June 28, 2021 @02:05PM (#27665315)
A compromise if not a great solution, but it is a decent solution.

This compromise does make sense in a slightly unchanging economy.

Also, if you have highly sought skills this is a detriment, if you have skills that are not in demand, then this is nice to have.

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by hef19898 on Monday June 28, 2021 @02:50PM (#27666025)
When everyone has the same periods, they don't matter. For e declining economy, we have various forms of state sponsored half unemployment, meaning that you work less while keeping your job and the state sponsors your salary to a degree.

You can also always negotiate an earlier release. These periods offer stability for both parties.

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by gruez on Monday June 28, 2021 @01:56PM (#27665180)
> At-will employment is the exception, not the rule, in most of the developed world.

How does this work elsewhere in the world? From a legal point of view at-will employment seems like the default when it comes to buying a service (ie. labor). If you rent a server from amazon you can stop the rental anytime you want, and they can kick you off anytime you want.

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by woodruffw on Monday June 28, 2021 @02:02PM (#27665263)
> From a legal point of view at-will employment seems like the default when it comes to buying a service (ie. labor).

I think this gets to the heart of the difference: Americans tend to think of their employment as a continuous exchange of dollars for their labor, whereas most of the world takes the concept of an employment contract to heart.

That contract, in turn, contains both legal and contractual stipulations that prevent firing without cause: employers must give you so-and-so many weeks of notice before beginning the process of firing you, must pay you for so-and-so many months if you present an argument to a labor board, &c. There's nothing informal about it: it's the difference between continuous billing for a service and a fixed-length contract.

Here's a random PDF I found that explains some of the difference between US and French labor contracts[1].

[1]: https://www.bakermckenzie.com/-/media/files/insight/publicat...

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by mister_tee on Monday June 28, 2021 @02:40PM (#27665857)
This will depend on your views on politics/society/humanity. I know that there one side of the argument that workers should be basically hot-swappable and rack-mountable. I am often a bleeding-heart liberal and am pretty far to the other side of things. Underneath everything here it's more a question of feelings and values more than any sort of logic. Different countries' laws may come down on different sides of the argument here.

A virtualized server from Amazon does not need food, clothing, and shelter to survive. It does not have a family to support. Simply, it is not alive. and laws around humans and commodities should probably be very different.

More cold-hearted practical arguments for businesses: the virtual machine cannot vote in the next election, it cannot contact the local news media to complain about working conditions, it cannot unionize. If things get very bad it cannot buy torches and pitchforks.

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by Pet_Ant on Monday June 28, 2021 @02:05PM (#27665328)
Employing someone in most of the world is not seen as simply buying a service. It's not a subscription. Are you aware of the concept of Noblesse Oblige[1]? As the worker is smaller and more fragile the business can handle the burden better. The business has lots of employees whereas the employees have only one employer.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noblesse_oblige

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by tolbish on Monday June 28, 2021 @02:31PM (#27665716)
But do they also control your healthcare?

Your boss does.

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by t0mas88 on Monday June 28, 2021 @04:42PM (#27667813)
Not in the big majority of developed countries... The US is also the big exception in that.
Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by tolbish on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:18PM (#27670037)
That is precisely my point.
Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by missedthecue on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:18PM (#27670029)
Something being widely practiced doesn't make it necessarily good or bad though. At-will being the global norm is not inherent evidence that it is productive, just, or consistent policy.

The low hanging fruit analogies are slavery, limited suffrage, and laws against homosexual civil unions, all of which were global norms at one point.

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by woodruffw on Monday June 28, 2021 @08:49PM (#27670295)
Certainly. But I think this is missing the point: the argument isn't that employment protections are good because they're widespread; the argument is that employment protections are good and their wide-spreadness is a response to a perceived need (cf. "not sure this is something that needs fixing").

The positive argument is that it's already a fixture and an agreed-upon solution in most of the developed world. The normative argument, i.e. that it's good, is in the next two paragraphs.

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by sneak on Monday June 28, 2021 @03:49PM (#27666948)
> employees are de facto dependent on their employers for their ability to feed, clothe, and shelter themselves.

This is false. This presumes that all employees are incapable of saving money or seeking alternate employment quickly.

Neither is true.

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by woodruffw on Monday June 28, 2021 @04:05PM (#27667181)
> This presumes that all employees are incapable of saving money or seeking alternate employment quickly.

It doesn't presume anything of the sort: you don't need to make a statement about "all" employees to observe that the average American under 35 has under $10,000 in liquid savings[1]. That can disappear pretty quickly with a car or home accident, unexpected injury, or legal liability. Even outside of those, it's not very much to live on outside of LCoL areas for more than a couple of months.

The average American is also not a tech worker: they're somewhere in the lower middle class, and may or may not have the ability to transition rapidly between jobs (our current funhouse-mirror economy aside). You're making extraordinary presumptions about millions of people, presumptions with very real and material consequences.

But to go even further: we should not be punishing people with the threat of hunger or exposure for failing to keep liquid savings! The current economy doesn't encourage liquid (i.e., conservative) saving techniques, and American education does not consistently include financial planning. The vast majority of Americans are blamelessly "winging it" and should not be punished for that.

To tie a bow around it: I don't need to make a universal statement about every employee in America to correctly observe that many employees are materially threatened by at-will employment. Attempting to promote this into universal claims is bewildering at best; it's immediately obvious to everyone that plenty of people can survive an unexpected firing.

[1]: https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/average-ame...

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by black_puppydog on Monday June 28, 2021 @03:52PM (#27666977)
Not being able to (meaningfully) save money is a harsh reality for many people, what are you talking about?

The fact that some (tech/highly skilled) workers have actual leverage doesn't negate the fact that many, MANY others don't have any.

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by pope_meat on Monday June 28, 2021 @03:59PM (#27667086)
50% of the US population would be ruined by an unexpected $500 bill.

We can't operate on how things ought to be, we have to look at how things are actually...and they're bad.

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by WalterBright on Monday June 28, 2021 @06:10PM (#27668901)
My dad, career Air Force, was once given the job of coaching the privates on the Air Force base. It seems that about 50% of them were unable to pay their bills, which caused friction between the base commander and the local merchants.

The privates were all paid the same, every two weeks.

Half were able to pay their bills and did well. The other half would spend their paychecks as fast as possible, and would run out of money after 1 week. The 2nd week was spent begging, borrowing, and in general being a deadbeat.

My dad would sit down with them, go over their spending, and prepare budgets for them. Literally none of them were able to adhere to those budgets.

Again, 50%.

Re:Amazon is using algorithms with little human intervention... by exporectomy on Monday June 28, 2021 @05:44PM (#27668598)
Don't forget that 40% of the population is above or below working age. So perhaps it's only 20% of working age people.