What's missing from docs like [0] that makes you say that?
[0] https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.uni...
I can pattern match that https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/ - "Structural and semantic deficiencies in the systemd architecture for real-world service management, a technical treatise" from six years ago (Discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10370348 ) might be relevant.
Are those points reasonable? Dunno. If so, have they been addressed? No clue.
Much like Pipewire exposes PulseAudio interfaces but is implemented differently.
Yeah, and it is not only underspecified, but too weak to be useful, which just pushes all the init.d logic somewhere else. What you've accomplished is moving it somewhere nonstandard, great job.
Also, the command line ergonomics suck. Systemd is deeply unfriendly to humans.
It was a power play in support of a long-term RH strategy, supported by a lot of bad faith arguments. Fascinating to watch as sociology, less nice as a forced-user.
Yet another person writing fantasy, not facts. Systemd wasn't "quickly" made a hard dependency. It was a soft dependency for ages, then eventually the release team made a mistake around systemd-logind. I was part of the GNOME release team at that time. Still, GNOME runs without systemd. Meanwhile we had loads of discussions with loads of distributions.
Yet the things you write: quickly done, apparently lots of people were secretly paid by Red Hat, forcing distributions? All devoid of any facts, just emotions that dismiss the amount of work me and loads of volunteers have done.
"Debian GNOME packagers are planning the same AFAIK; they rather just rely on systemd (as init system, not just some dependencies). In the end, the number of distributions not having systemd decreases."
That was written by Olav Vitters, of the GNOME Release Team, who later admitted[2] "Personally I’m totally biased and think the only realistic choice is systemd."
You could argue that any blame for this dependency therefore lies with the Debian packagers, rather than Red Hat employees, but actually, if you look into the history, there was already a push for making GNOME dependent on systemd three years earlier by none other than Lennart Poettering.[3]
Even at that time, Josselin Mouette, founder of the Debian GNOME team, obsequiously replied "I don’t have anything against requiring systemd, since it is definitely the best init system out there currently" and later acknowledged the influence Red Hat had over the direction of GNOME, saying "Red Hat being the company spending the most on GNOME, it is obvious that their employees work on making things work for their distribution" and "on the whole we don’t intend to diverge from the upstream design, on which a lot of good work has been done."[4]
So there was definitely pressure on Debian from GNOME to make systemd the default init, and pressure from Red Hat to make GNOME depend on systemd. Whether or not these decisions were all coordinated in advance in a smoke-filled room is beside the point, given that things worked out exactly the way such a conspiracy would have wanted.
[0] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708#5
[1] https://blogs.gnome.org/ovitters/2013/09/25/gnome-and-logind...
[2] https://blogs.gnome.org/ovitters/2014/02/03/my-thoughts-on-t...
[3] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-May/...
[4] https://raphaelhertzog.com/2012/01/27/people-behind-debian-j...
If you want to claim that process was democratic, you have to believe that the members of the committee perfectly represent the opinions of all Debian developers (to say nothing of Debian users), and therefore have to excuse the fact that the vote had to be settled by giving one of those people, Bdale Garbee (HP's CTO of Linux), effectively two votes.
It was only three days after the tech committee's decision that Mark Shuttleworth announced that Ubuntu would fall in line by abandoning Upstart[0], and not until many months later that the first General Resolution was put forward to try overturning the committee.[1] Of course by that time everyone was tired of the arguments and it would have soured relations with Canonical to force Ubuntu back away from systemd, so the GR was doomed from the start.
[0] https://www.admin-magazine.com/News/Ubuntu-Abandons-Upstart
You've rewritten history to pretend you're right. Then you follow up with more drivel? Sorry, aside from trolling, what is your point?
This seems pretty clear that GNOME used to depend on systemd. How am I rewriting anything? https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Hard_dependencies_on_systemd#Pa...
I thought you were the same as the other person. You're continuing the same argument, so it really doesn't matter if you're the same or not: "quickly made systemd a hard requirement" is bullshit. Further, it could easily be worked around.
If you notice e.g. the history of Ubuntu it happens regularly that you hold back a component if there's a problem integrating it. This happens across multiple distributions. It isn't something unique, nor special.
GNOME nor Red Hat did NOT "quickly made systemd a hard requirement". Gentoo was great to ensure that the API that was depended upon was implemented separately. Aside from that, a distribution could also hold back the logind change that caused this change. Skipping over all of these details is great to make this into some big conspiracy story. However, it is rewriting history. It wasn't something unique. Yeah, GNOME release team misjudged one thing. But it actually took a few years before it became an issue. Not this drivel with "OMG they added a hard dependency". It wasn't like that.
AFAIK the GNOME Wayland session still depends on logind, but that's more because there has been no interest in getting it to work on BSD yet.
What do you mean? Why the scare quotes? I'm not aware of anything in .service and related files which isn't declarative.