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Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by janandonly on Thursday June 24, 2021 @05:46PM (#27624223)
The reality is that if the minimum wage had stayed consistent with productivity and inflation since 1968, America’s lowest earners would be making around $24 an hour by now, an analysis by Jacobin found last year. Fifteen dollars is not asking for a lot. In fact, it’s asking for less than the bare minimum of what we should be providing our workers.
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by labcomputer on Thursday June 24, 2021 @06:31PM (#27624750)
The reality is that 1968 had the highest inflation-adjusted minimum wage ever in the united states. I'm not sure it makes sense to compare to an outlier.
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by u801e on Thursday June 24, 2021 @06:49PM (#27624938)
According to this chart [1] showing the inflation adjusted minimum wage over the years, it should be closer to $11 to match the dollar value it typically had most of the years it was in place.

[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Ti...

Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by saltysallys on Thursday June 24, 2021 @07:09PM (#27625110)
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by mannykannot on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:40PM (#27626607)
A maximum is not necessarily - or even normally - an outlier.
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by renewiltord on Friday June 25, 2021 @01:14AM (#27627364)
Sure, but we’re not making general statements. This one is.
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by mannykannot on Friday June 25, 2021 @08:14AM (#27629755)
Sure, in general, that would be something to take into consideration - but in this specific case, the maximum is not an outlier.

Apparently (based on the comment I was replying to), labcomputer does seem to think the maximum is an outlier, and that this false generality applies here.

Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by labcomputer on Saturday June 26, 2021 @01:22PM (#27643831)
> Apparently (based on the comment I was replying to), labcomputer does seem to think the maximum is an outlier

Visually, 1968 sure looks like an outlier to me: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=EZn4

But let's check my intuition. The federal minimum wage was raised 10 times from 1960 through 1980. The raises have the following indexed values:

* 1961: 137

* 1963: 145

* 1967: 151

* 1968: 167

* 1974: 146

* 1975: 143

* 1976: 147

* 1978: 150

* 1979: 151

* 1980: 141

So mean = 148, st.dev = 8.1. That puts 1968 at 2.4 standard deviations above the mean.

If you just want to make the pedantic point that the maximum is not in general an outlier, we are in agreement. But, in this particular case, the maximum is clearly an outlier.

Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by mannykannot on Saturday June 26, 2021 @09:53PM (#27647821)
I appreciate the work you put into this, but when I look at the data, I see a nonstationary (humped) time series, where I am not sure that 2.4 standard deviations above the mean is a reliable identifier of outliers.

Furthermore, I think the data still supports janandonly's point (though not quite as starkly) even if we throw out the maximum.

It would indeed be pedantic of me to now make an issue of the maximum not in general being an outlier, but at the time I wrote that, I was replying to a post in which the only justification given for considering 1968 to be an outlier was the fact that it was the maximum.

Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by randyrand on Thursday June 24, 2021 @07:51PM (#27625423)
I hate this argument. It is so flawed.

When productivity increased, minimum wage earners do make more.

Overall productivity increases don't increase profits. They reduce prices! Workers make more because everything costs less.

If you increased minimum wage with productivity, it would eclipse the highest earners in a matter of decades. It makes no sense to do that.

Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by neilwilson on Thursday June 24, 2021 @08:41PM (#27625801)
"Overall productivity increases don't increase profits. They reduce prices! Workers make more because everything costs less."

That only applies in an economy without credit and where sales are constrained by the spending of the wage share. In an economy with credit you can use financialisation to give people spending power their wages don't permit, which keeps prices higher than they would otherwise be and allows more to flow to the profit share.

The dynamics then drives the path of interest rates down over the years until you get a credit crunch - at which point the lack of spending from the profit share suddenly shows up in a Minsky Moment.

Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by randyrand on Friday June 25, 2021 @02:07AM (#27627630)
Short term sure, but the overall big picture is the same.
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by neilwilson on Friday June 25, 2021 @05:34AM (#27628732)
There is no equilibrating condition in the dynamics that brings that about and certainly nothing that is politically viable.

There's an inductive connection between the monetary economy and the real economy, not a direct one. It works more like an iPhone charger than a 1 bar electric fire, and that means you need greater monetary 'apparent power' to get the maximum level of real economy 'true power'.

Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by guerrilla on Friday June 25, 2021 @04:59AM (#27628514)
All of these calculations are inflation-adjusted, so, no, not at all.
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by krickkrack on Thursday June 24, 2021 @05:52PM (#27624290)
Well the reality is also that if $24/hr was the minimum wage the price of items would be through the roof and that $24/hr would be worth less than what the $15/hr is worth now.

No such thing as a free lunch. You can't just inflate a persons worth without having to pay for it somehow.

Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by slater on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:33PM (#27626860)
the (allegedly taking-all-the-risks) folks at the very tippy-top could also earn a little bit less.

y'know, even out the playing field a millimeter or two.

Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by djbebs on Friday June 25, 2021 @07:07AM (#27629247)
Why should they?
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by truckerbill on Friday June 25, 2021 @07:15AM (#27629287)
Because wealth generation is a positive feedback loop which creates a winner-take-all situation. And a persons starting conditions are based on luck. And roughly speaking, the relationship between money and well-being is non-linear, shaped like a log curve. So three kinds of unfair.
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by krickkrack on Friday June 25, 2021 @09:26AM (#27630484)
If you want to talk about fairness, imagine the guy who started near the bottom, made his way out of dire circumstances, climbed to the top through hard work and perserverance sacrificing his 20s and 30s (all while his friends sat around smoking weed, having families, enjoying life) and now someone like you comes along and takes ~50% of what he makes, in order to give it to those guys he knows did nothing to earn it.
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by slater on Friday June 25, 2021 @01:28PM (#27633815)
If you want to talk about fairness, imagine the guy who had everything handed to him, born into a wealthy family, with parents getting him into a top-notch college despite horrible grades, and... I can't even finish, but you get the idea.

We can sit around making up what-if hypothetical tropes till the cows come home, and nothing will change. The rich at the very top just get richer.

Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by truckerbill on Friday June 25, 2021 @12:57PM (#27633368)
I’m willing to bet you’re still comfortable. Especially if your effective tax rate is anywhere near that.

The point is to see past your own pile of coin and think about society as a whole. If people were up for sacrificing that second holiday house and their stupid expensive watch or whatever, so much good would come of it.

Inequality fuels crime , public services like trains suffer etc...

I think ‘giving money to free loaders’ is a bit of a straw man, as the second order effects benefit everyone. Including you. And note I’m not advocating communism.

Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by lvkv on Thursday June 24, 2021 @05:49PM (#27624252)
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by LatteLazy on Thursday June 24, 2021 @06:03PM (#27624436)
We don't really have a definition for productivity for most labour, let alone a measure. I take your wider point that it should be higher, but any economic arguement invoking productivity is suspect...
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by refurb on Friday June 25, 2021 @01:10AM (#27627350)
That’s seems like an unreasonable conclusion.

If productivity is driven by industries with no minimum wage workers, why would the benefit of that productivity pass to them?

Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by dehrmann on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:54PM (#27626988)
At least in 2019, you could say there's clearly a surplus of low-skilled labor. In 2021, it's a lot more mixed because of people relocating due to covid, so it hasn't quite settled down yet, and there are genuine unskilled labor shortages in large metros. It's gonna be a brutal snap back, or there will be an even larger class of nuemployable, due to covid-driven automation.
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by s1artibartfast on Friday June 25, 2021 @11:07AM (#27631726)
How much more productive is a person flipping burgers or bagging groceries now than 1968? I'm guessing that productivity numbers used are for the economy at large.
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by ActorNightly on Thursday June 24, 2021 @06:07PM (#27624477)
The technology industry sector productivity has exploded, but to tie that back into average productivity in support of minimum wage is poor analysis.
Re:You’re Lucky Workers Are Only Asking for $15 an Hour by compressedgas on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:15PM (#27626778)
That $24 is $7.50 in 1980 dollars adjusted for inflation to 2020 dollars.