News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by ecshafer on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:32AM (#27617122)
This will only continue to get worse. Journalism can never be truly objective. But as we move more and more along this line, where journalists seem content with moving away from the facts, and more towards yellow journalism, and see themselves more and more as activists changing the world, and less as people bringing the truth out. this will only accelerate. As the old guard retires and leaves the news room, we will have completely lost any sense of journalistic integrity.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by mc32 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:53AM (#27617406)
>” and see themselves more and more as activists changing the world...”

That is the main problem.

They no longer see themselves as a medium to disseminate events but rather shapers of opinions about events.

Like laughtracks for situational comedies, they see themselves as having a responsibility to tell people how to think of an event.

It’s like Pravda but worse. Pravda at least had the decency to not want to pit a population against itself.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by pydry on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:19AM (#27617869)
I'm less bothered by opinionated news than I am seeing Julian Assange thrown in prison for exposing state sanctioned murder.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by mc32 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:22AM (#27617923)
It's this opinion shaping that convinces people not to care about the imprisonment of someone acting as a mere conduit to the dissemination of information.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by pydry on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:24AM (#27617968)
true enough
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by read_if_gay_ on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:25AM (#27617984)
You should be just as bothered, if not more, by the news not making a huge deal out of this and instead reporting on FUD rape allgations against Assange.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by pydry on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:42AM (#27618294)
To me it doesn't seem as bad. I don't like the lies and the slander but it's better than raw violence.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by read_if_gay_ on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:41PM (#27620122)
It's not just lies and slander, but lies and slander in place of reporting this abuse. It's the media's job to make people aware of their government's wrongdoings.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by refurb on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:40AM (#27618244)
I think the big changes has been the fracturing of “opinion shapers”. Back in the JFK era nobody talked about his affairs - that was an agreement among the media.

Then the disruption of the 60’s happened and the Vietnam War drove a schism between official govt stance and the truth on the ground and some media personalities were famous for exposing it.

Now everything is fractured and when you dig into it you realize both side are trying to shape the narrative, so both are being selective about the truth.

By fighting over whose wool to pull over your eyes they inadvertently pulled it off entirely.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by furgooswft13 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:20AM (#27617891)
> Pravda at least had the decency to not want to pit a population against itself.

Not so sure about this, there were a lot of purges...

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by dagw on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:25AM (#27617978)
They no longer see themselves as a medium to disseminate events but rather shapers of opinions about events.

When was the golden age of journalism when this wasn't the case?

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by tines on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:29AM (#27618047)
Before the Typographic Man became the Graphic Man. Daniel Boorstin talks about this very thing in The Image, which is a fascinating read.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by jmeister on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:02AM (#27618633)
Very interesting references. Thank you.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by minikites on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:40AM (#27618256)
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by mc32 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:26PM (#27619881)
I have a problem with the qualifier always.

There tend to be exceptions to everything. What’s important is the average or the trend.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by mschuster91 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:23AM (#27617945)
> They no longer see themselves as a medium to disseminate events but rather shapers of opinions about events.

Journalism has always been shaping opinions, alone by selection aka what gets reported in the evening news and what not. The only ones who manage to pass that mark are the huge news agencies with a worldwide presence, but no reasonable human can consume all of that content.

Reporting about science is another ... hotly debated issue. It is scientific consensus that climate change is man-made and that the virus SARS-CoV-2 causes COVID-19, a disease that has caused the death of at least 600.000 people in the US and about 3.9 million people worldwide - but for some parts of the country, mostly on the right wing, simply the act of reporting these facts is already seen as "opinion shaping".

And finally, even reporting on events can be seen as "shaping opinions" - think of events like mass or school shootings, where the 2nd amendment crowd complains that the victims or their relatives are being interviewed and calling for gun control. Or BLM and LGBT events - some people see the mere mention of these as "political".

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by babesh on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:10AM (#27618758)
The funny thing about this comment is that it is the perfect demonstration of how media/people omit or spin facts to control the narrative.

Some missing facts:

The CDC and Fauci recommended against masks to protect the mask supply for health providers. Media pushed this messaging.

The vaccines seem to cause heart issues with some people dying from it. Only months later is the CDC admitting supposedly minor heart issues. Furthermore they are pushing people to take it (even those who stand to lose more than to benefit from it). Media pushes this narrative.

The vaccines do seem to work for most people and seem effective against the variants of COVID-19.

Many BLM protests were peaceful but some were taken advantage of and just became opportunities to loot.

Defund the police has caused skyrocketing property crime and violent crime.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by Steltek on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:08PM (#27619631)
Omitting and spinning facts indeed. You're simply pushing your own narrative here so aren't you making yourself part of the problem?
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by babesh on Saturday July 03, 2021 @12:57PM (#27723006)
https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/NBC-Bay-Area-news-crew-...

Attempted robbery of reporters in front of Oakland City Hall in broad daylight while the reporters were interviewing a cop about Oakland supervisors defunding the police and shifting resources to his crime prevention division.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by textgel on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:20PM (#27619803)
Seems they are adding facts that have been missed. Is there a particular reason you want these facts suppressed?
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by Steltek on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:38PM (#27620079)
LOL. "And how long have you been beating your wife?"

babesh is adding facts, mixed with pure opinion, of his own choosing to also further a narrative. Is "Defund the police has caused skyrocketing property crime and violent crime." a verified (or even provable) fact? If so, what was omitted from that statement that would have made it less biased. And ultimately, how is he not committing the same sin as corporate media?

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by babesh on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:53PM (#27620342)
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by Steltek on Thursday June 24, 2021 @01:04PM (#27620555)
> retail executives, police officers and city officials have attributed the surge to Proposition 47, a 2014 ballot measure that reclassified nonviolent larceny as a misdemeanor

Your sources don't even support your opinion/narrative? If anything, I'm afraid your claim to the high ground has worsened.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by babesh on Thursday June 24, 2021 @08:50PM (#27625849)
Apparently you can’t read because it isn’t just because it is a misdemeanor but because of the refusal of Chesa Boudin to prosecute.

Look who is picking and choosing which facts to ignore and choosing to spin a narrative. Go watch all the news even of left sided news. There are a lot of complaints about how businesses and communities are hurt. There are increasing calls to fund the police and some communities are starting to do that. Even Chesa Boudin is now saying that businesses need to protected. Even London Breed is saying the same.

They just arrested a person who was on a serial shoplifting spree. Police were complaining that they would arrest people and the DA would just let them free.

https://youtu.be/2jrnhaLzCqA

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/suspected-shoplifter-fr...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/san-francisco-confronts...

Here is the shoplifter that they finally arrested after letting shoplifting go on for the past year.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by babesh on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:11PM (#27626022)
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/25/us/defund-police-crime-spike/...

“ Homicides and aggravated assaults in the city has increased over the last two years. Year to date, homicide up 26.5 percent over 2020, up 44.9 percent over 2019. Aggravated assault is up 12.8 percent year over year, and 11.3 percent over 2019. Overall violent crime is up year-over-year 5.8 percent, driven by homicide and aggravated assault numbers.”

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by rsj_hn on Monday June 28, 2021 @01:22AM (#27658378)
It's absolutely shocking that homicides are up in 2020 given that a good chunk of SF's population fled during the year and most of the bars/stores were closed and the streets were empty. If homicides were up in that environment, this is very, very bad news for 2021 and 2022.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by babesh on Monday June 28, 2021 @01:12AM (#27658331)
Car break-ins up 753% this year in SF. Hahahaha. Home burglaries up 94%. Hahahaha.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/San-Francisco-car-...

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by babesh on Saturday July 03, 2021 @02:18PM (#27723620)
Hmmm. This isn’t the full picture. The 753% stat is for the Central district and is compared to 2019.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by textgel on Thursday June 24, 2021 @01:25PM (#27620922)
Which facts is it he's left out? You don't get to just lie and say he's doing it without stating which is being left out.

So given that you are baselessly attacking him, and the only thing that drew you to him was the facts he stated; clearly you don't want him stating them. So again. I ask, why do you want those facts suppressed? And why are you being evasive about answering the question?

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by i_haz_rabies on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:40AM (#27617219)
I did my masters in journalism in 2015... you have no idea how right you are. It was more or less a masters in blogging about your feelings on a topic you just heard about.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by two2two on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:04AM (#27617611)
While journalism was/is the fourth estate, the watchdog of the government, the people as the watchdog of journalists is becoming the rising fifth estate. This fifth estate isn't so organized or always of much quality, but observable signal is emerging. Truly, I've noticed a more substantial signal coming from HN comments questioning the veracity of the fourth estate. It's great to see.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by kingsuper20 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:47AM (#27617314)
Looking at newspapers from 1900, I'd say that an objective old guard, to the extent it really existed, was a temporary affair.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by bena on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:58AM (#27617493)
Completely objective reporting has always been more aspirational than anything else.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by kyle_martin1 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:02AM (#27617568)
I don’t think there such a thing as objective journalism—- there is only who is honest about the lens from which they view the world.

For instance, CNN is left leaning and Fox is right leaning. They should just explicitly state their viewpoint so viewers can calibrate how much credence they give to unsourced claims and see past the political posturing.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by raxxorrax on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:19AM (#27617876)
Objective journalism doesn't claim to be perfect, but the attempt would clearly build trust.

I see it differently, subjective opinions aren't journalism.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by haberman on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:29AM (#27618040)
This is like the statement: “all models are wrong, but some are useful.”

It is a true statement, but it doesn’t mean that all models are equally wrong, or that all journalism is equally biased. Objective journalism is an ideal to strive for, even it if cannot be perfectly achieved.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by _gtly on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:11AM (#27617737)
You might want to check out allsides.com [1] which gives a rating for where media sources lie on a left-right spectrum

1. https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-ratings

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by ctrlp on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:37AM (#27618187)
I keep seeing allsides.com recommended here but I don't get why people find it valuable. First, it locates things like NPR and BBC news services in the "Center" (whatever that is). I had radical leftist professors that would be to the right of today's NPR. Second, the left->center<-right spectrum is becoming less and less relevant to today's media/political industrial complex. A relevant question for any media outlet re "trust", imho, is of partisanship rather than political preferences. The major media outlets are extremely partisan today and will generally not report outside of their affiliated party's talking points. The DNC/RNC control the Overton window. The distinction between outlets like NPR or Fox and Jacobin or American Conservative is on a Partisan<->Politics spectrum. The other important factor is that the Media is the cultural arm of the Professional-Managerial elite and represents that class's interests. Most on HN are also in that class and can't see past their ideological blinders.

Personally, I find the https://realclearpolitics.com model of just putting headlines from different outlets in a list to be more useful than outsourcing some sort of "bias rating" and "fact-checking" to YAMO (Yet Another Media Outlet).

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by tptacek on Thursday June 24, 2021 @08:30PM (#27625709)
It's not valuable. One of the things it does is chart "opinion" sources alongside "news" sources, so that the reason you see NPR in the center is that they're talking to a small (and poorly defined) subset of NPR. You see the same thing with NYT "opinion" (allegedly equivalent to Jacobin!) vs. NYT "news" (allegedly equivalently partisan to the Epoch Times!).

I think the real subtext of this chart isn't so much to portray any particular outlet further to the left or right than it is, but rather to boost the credibility of fringe outlets.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by Spellman on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:41AM (#27619202)
Unfortunately RCP has taken to being quite partisan on it's own as well
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by Spellman on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:51AM (#27618444)
Personally prefer the Media Bias Chart from ad fontes. Has the helpful axis on who seems to intentionally leave things out. https://www.adfontesmedia.com/

That being said, I do appreciate that allsides uses an interesting method to blind bias surveys to help categorize. But sometimes things don't always line up.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by jcranmer on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:45AM (#27618358)
... They consider The Economist leftist? Note that The Economist is extremely open about supporting neoliberal economics, being generally anti-tax and anti-regulation. The only way you'd call it left is if you ignored its voluminous discussion of finance, business, and economics and instead observe that it's generally uninterested in prosecuting any culture wars.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by xadhominemx on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:27AM (#27618014)
That’s an absurd chart. They put politico as left and cnn as far left (equivalent to Breitbart). Come on.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by Wolfenstein98k on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:38AM (#27618199)
They distinguish between news and opinion, but CNN is definitely left. I'd call them the equal opposite to Fox.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by xadhominemx on Thursday June 24, 2021 @02:06PM (#27621598)
You’re not American and don’t live in the US. You’re perspective is limited and your opinion is wrong.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by dexterdog on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:05AM (#27618668)
It gives a rating for where the average voter on the site thinks the sources lie.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by eplanit on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:31AM (#27618089)
Interesting...but NPR is misplaced. It definitely is Left, to at times Far Left.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by dagw on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:41AM (#27618271)
It definitely is Left, to at times Far Left.

While I agree that NPR puts out a lot content that can be described as 'lefty', NPR News feels pretty straight down the middle.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by rhino369 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:06AM (#27618683)
It feels pretty far left to me. It’s not as nakedly partisan. But it covers almost exclusively left issues.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by kyle_martin1 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @03:02PM (#27622361)
How do I know the site owner’s own biases? They’re defining their own spectrum which is inherently biased.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by BurningFrog on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:00AM (#27617535)
The news rooms are dying out. The journalism jobs are disappearing.

The interesting question is what will replace what we now call "journalism", and how it will work.

Interesting times ahead!

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by weimerica on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:06AM (#27617638)
> The interesting question is what will replace what we now call "journalism", and how it will work.

One might well call it for what it is, PR and propaganda, but in my experience one will want to retain the title "journalist" for all the positive emotional weight it contains.

I've had drinks with a few local paper "journalists" of the current, young generations and the reality of their work is shaping of narrative rather than reporting, but on the topic of job title view themselves in the same light as an Upton Sinclair. Brings to mind the early 2010s "positively changing the world" startup software engineers building Orwellian systems.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by fastball on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:20AM (#27617890)
I think maybe you're attributing to malice what can more easily be attributed to the fact that most journalists these days wanted/want to become creative writers, but that doesn't pay consistently so they became journos with the intent to write their novel in their spare time, but then realized they can just scratch the creative writing itch as part of their day job.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by fouric on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:47AM (#27618381)
I've heard this phenomenon described as "post-journalism", in an informative (albeit biased) article from City Journal: https://www.city-journal.org/journalism-advocacy-over-report...
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by eplanit on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:15AM (#27617813)
That describes it exactly. I think it will have to completely fail, and then a new generation (tragically, probably not the present one, or even then next) will have to rebuild it from the ashes. Maybe the positive way to see the present is as being that prelude to a better day for your grandchildren.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by BigGreenTurtle on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:43AM (#27619232)
I guess maybe I don't understand why one would go into journalism, but if your goal isn't to effect change why be a journalist? Were the journalists working on stories detailing the Catholic Church's pedo problem just doing it for kicks or a book deal?
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by raxxorrax on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:16AM (#27617830)
If you aren't objective to the best possible degree, your readers don't trust you anymore. Newspapers are in economic peril, but the trust issue is something a lot of journalists brought on themselves.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by merpnderp on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:31AM (#27618083)
Interesting point, but I saw a judge took that to the extreme with a libel suit against Rachael Maddow, by saying no one would ever think she was offering news, only her opinion, thus no one would ever believe her. But people often believe things they've been told, even when it comes from people who are clearly not objective on the matter, so perhaps the judge was wrong.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by dexterdog on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:39AM (#27619179)
That ruling was used later to defend Tucker Carlson for basically the same thing. A good way to tell if a source is left or right leaning is to see which of those stories they reported on and how.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by xadhominemx on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:40AM (#27618245)
That’s not true. Readers don’t trust you when you don’t tell them what they want to hear. They are extremely fragile.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by Steltek on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:02PM (#27619541)
Fox News circa 2000's is the best example. A huge outlier for media bias at the time but Republicans tuned in because it reinforced and validated their beliefs.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by raxxorrax on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:30PM (#27619951)
I don't know if that is true. We had a press telling people what they wanted to hear and trust is now extremely low.
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by xadhominemx on Thursday June 24, 2021 @02:03PM (#27621556)
Fox News viewers trust Fox News a lot
Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by dagw on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:45AM (#27618360)
If you aren't objective to the best possible degree, your readers don't trust you anymore.

That just isn't the case. People trust you if you re-enforce their biases. The news sources that are getting the most traction aren't the most objective ones.

Re:US ranks last among 46 countries in trust in media by papito on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:10AM (#27617716)
Most good journalism is moving behind paywalls, but disinformation campaigns are free.