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Re:Spectre mitigations murder userspace performance by titzer on Saturday June 19, 2021 @10:00AM (#27560515)
Mitigations for inter-process side channels address the issue of local applications attacking each other. That includes your web browser, the JS in it, or any other ad-laden crapware attack your local applications, e.g. to steal credit cards, SSH keys, etc.

Side-channels are pernicious. In the limit, they give applications unfettered read access across protection boundaries. If we don't shut them down, we might as well throw out the whole UNIX process boundary security model.

Ask yourself, would it be fine if every process had a 4KB/s (basically dialup speed) connection to read any desired byte of another process's address space?

Of course not. Thus, we need mitigations to shut these channels down.

Re:Spectre mitigations murder userspace performance by userbinator on Saturday June 19, 2021 @05:50PM (#27564782)
address the issue of local applications attacking each other.

IMHO it's stupid to even try to isolate processes to that extent, as it's a really deep rabbithole that'll lead to worse performance and dubious increases in actual security. The best defense is to simply make everything running on the system be trusted.

Process protection boundaries should be for protection against accidental cross-process corruption, a form of reliability, and nothing more. That's effectively what the early 286/386 documentation stated, so Intel never even intended these protections to be defenses against side-channels in the first place.

Of course, the "security industry" needs to keep creating paranoia-fuel to justify their existence...

Re:Spectre mitigations murder userspace performance by nyanpasu64 on Saturday June 19, 2021 @08:09PM (#27565778)
> Ask yourself, would it be fine if every process had a 4KB/s (basically dialup speed) connection to read any desired byte of another process's address space?

> Of course not.

So if it's not OK for processes to read each others' address spaces, does that mean it's not OK to attach gdb to a running process to figure out where it's stuck at, without running gdb as root? I chose to reenable ptrace among sibling processes on my system out of convenience, and hopefully it's not too much of a vulnerability. (I also chose to enable passwordless sudo, which is convenient, but probably dangerous as well. I wonder if I can use my hardware security key for sudo instead.)

Re:Spectre mitigations murder userspace performance by jfrunyon on Saturday June 19, 2021 @11:15AM (#27561169)
> 4KB/s (basically dialup speed)

I guess if "basically" means "takes 10x longer"?

Re:Spectre mitigations murder userspace performance by rcthompson on Saturday June 19, 2021 @12:54PM (#27562119)
32 kb/s is on the same order of magnitude as dial-up (56 kb/s), not 10x slower.

(I don't know if dial-up is still 56 kb/s these days, but that's the speed historically associated with the term.)

Re:Spectre mitigations murder userspace performance by jfrunyon on Monday June 21, 2021 @03:46PM (#27583457)
I was assuming that 4KB/s is peak speed, not sustained speed.
Re:Spectre mitigations murder userspace performance by pjmlp on Saturday June 19, 2021 @04:28PM (#27564158)
That would be only on the context of shmem, right?

I would assume other IPC mechanisms are safe from it.

Re:Spectre mitigations murder userspace performance by msbarnett on Saturday June 19, 2021 @04:59PM (#27564421)
You would assume incorrectly.
Re:Spectre mitigations murder userspace performance by pjmlp on Saturday June 19, 2021 @05:20PM (#27564563)
How would Spectre exploit UNIX message boxes then?
Re:Spectre mitigations murder userspace performance by msbarnett on Saturday June 19, 2021 @05:30PM (#27564629)
Multiple Spectre variants (RDCL, RSRR, Lazy FP state restore, SpectreRSB) bypass process boundaries. It doesn’t matter what IPC mechanism you use, they can read arbitrary privileged memory no matter who owns it.

IPC really has nothing to do with anything, Spectre-wise; you don’t have to be using any IPC mechanism in either the attacker or attackee process to be vulnerable to these variants.

Re:Spectre mitigations murder userspace performance by pjmlp on Sunday June 20, 2021 @02:48AM (#27567754)
I see, need to educate myself better on the subject then.