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Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by dugmartin on Monday June 14, 2021 @06:15AM (#27500980)
> The method that actually worked was to get a few boys with rifles up on the parapet and have them shoot down into the trenches, killing everyone they could. Faster, more efficient, and no silly buggers with grenades flying back and forth.

The American's brought shotguns ("trench guns") to do that work. It was seen by the Germans as violation of the law of war.

"On 19 September 1918, the German government issued a diplomatic protest against the American use of shotguns, alleging that the shotgun was prohibited by the law of war."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1897

Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by JackFr on Monday June 14, 2021 @07:26AM (#27501352)
The Thompson submachine gun also picked up the nickname “trench broom”.
Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by philwelch on Monday June 14, 2021 @02:22PM (#27506204)
Though the war ended before the Thompson was in production, this was absolutely the intended use. Similar to the BAR, it would later see service in a world war much different than the one it was designed for.
Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by spywaregorilla on Monday June 14, 2021 @08:54AM (#27501958)
Don't you need to get to the enemy trench to use those? Isn't preventing that the whole point of trenches?
Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by grugq on Monday June 14, 2021 @01:49PM (#27505716)
There was two years of war before the British had figured out how to do trench raiding effectively. By late 1916 they had the “storm trooper” tactics completely figured out, something the Germans wouldn’t manage until 1918. The Germans on the other hand, developed very good defense in depth tactics.

A trench system is made of three lines of trenches in parallel, covering a mile or more in depth. The front line trench is the combat trench, where the fighting is supposed to take place. Then there is the support trench, which houses units for work parties and counterattacks and so on. Then the reserve trench which houses more work parties and has units resting from front line duty. Units would spent a week or two in the trenches, then rotate into the rear for a while to rest and receive replacements.

As the war progressed everyone basically learned that the front line trench was rubbish. It would be destroyed, overrun, shot up, etc. There was no point in holding it with a lot of troops because they’d get wiped out before they could do much of anything. The Germans switched to a front line that was just fortified shell holes with machine guns. This was very safe against artillery because there was no trench to target. It was effective against infantry attacks because the machine guns could wreak havoc on men with rifles. The support and reserve trenches would be real trenches.

This system of fortified shell holes with supporting strong points from the support trench was “defense in depth.” The opposition could “overrun” the front line, but they’d still have pockets of machine gun nests on their flanks and behind them. Eliminating every single machine gun nest was extremely slow and so… that is how defense was achieved. Not with a single strong trench, but with a system that could absorb an attack, slow it down, and reduce it with machine guns.

[anecdote: during an offensive one officer solved the “eliminate all the machine gun nests” problem by taking a German prisoner and making him stand up on a stump in no mans land pointing out every nest. The officer would prod him with his pistol and demand more information, until all the machine guns were located and neutralized. Only then was the poor German allowed to get off the elevated and exposed position.]

The offensive solution to this system was with artillery box barrages, storm trooper infiltration, and tanks (to some degree). The real solution was to spend years besieging Germany and bleeding her dry so that by late 1918 there was no manpower, materiel or morale to fight. Attrition wins.

Infiltration tactics were basically sending small units of men, say a section (8 men) or platoon (40 men) through the fortified shell hole system at night. That way when the attack began, the men were miles inside enemy territory already and could ambush the strong points, etc. This was what the British began doing by late 1916. Germany gets credit for inventing it almost two years later because, they had a really cool name (storm troopers!) and the enemy always has cooler better stuff than you do. And the British didn’t like a system that gave all the initiative to young officers, particularly the officers later in the war who came from civilian life to fight only for the duration, can’t have those types ruining things for the career officers from good families, etc. etc,

The trench raid was the primary way of defeating the trench system. It begins with a creeping barrage and the box barrage. The artillery fires on the front line trenches until the time when the infantry assault elements are supposed to arrive. Then it lifts and moves to targets further back. It stays on those until the time when the infantry is supposed to arrive then, and then lifts and moves forward again. Creeping barrage. The box baggage was where the artillery fences the area being assaulted with fire along the flanks. This produces a sort of box, where artillery is firing along two sides and one creeping barrage at the back. The idea is that the area within the box will be dealt with by the infantry assault units while the artillery prevents reinforcements and counterattacks.

It is a brittle system because there is so little information flow between the front line assault units and the artillery. If the times scheduled for the advances don’t match with reality the infantry can fall behind the protective screen. When this happens, I.e. the creeping barrage walks too far forward for the infantry to keep up, then the enemy can come up from their dugouts and man their defensive positions. This is, obviously, very bad for the Poor Bloody Infantry.

Anyway, the short answer is that trenches were attacked all the time and clearing trenches was an important activity. There were night raids as well, which is a whole other thing. That’s where the hand to hand fighting comes into it. That’s an entire other subject, including how the armies had to invent modern hand to hand combat training.

These days if you’re in the military you’re taught basically two technica, one to incapacitate and one to kill. Then everything else you learn is a way to setup either of those two techniques. Guy standing up? Ok, get him on the ground and crush his throat. Guy has a knife? Get him on the ground, safely, and crush his throat. Guy has a bayonet? Get him on… and so on. The French system was based on crushing the throat. With thumbs. Very… brutal. I’m not sure how much it was used, but that is what was taught,

Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by hutzlibu on Monday June 14, 2021 @05:30PM (#27508559)
"That’s an entire other subject, including how the armies had to invent modern hand to hand combat training."

From what I read about the german infantery in WW1, is that most troops learned about the technics about effective hand to hand combat only on the frontlines, directly from the Frontschweinen (frontpigs, veterans). Who told them mostly, that what they learned in the drills with fancy bayonett swinging, they should forget and just use their sharpened shovel. Or a rock, or a grenade to hit with it. Anything.

By WW2, all those was integrated into proper infantery training. Improvised, brutal and effective.

But the modern german army, doesn't teach hand to hand combat at all anymore, except for officers, special forces or military police and as far as I know, also only in a very limited way.

Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by credit_guy on Monday June 14, 2021 @11:26PM (#27510934)
Thanks for this great answer.

On a tangent, but since you seem to be knowledgeable of these things: how did attacking troops deal with the barbed wire, and especially with their own barbed wire? Was there a way to take down their barbed wire prior to an assault? If so, could you guess the time of an enemy assault by monitoring the status of their barbed wire? Or could you even mount a preemptive attack when they took down their barbed wire?

Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by spywaregorilla on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:42PM (#27508039)
This was very interesting, thanks.
Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by zelos on Monday June 14, 2021 @10:13AM (#27502738)
If you get enough men to walk slowly towards a trench protected by machine guns, eventually some of them will get close enough to use a shotgun.

(Actually, trench warfare by later WWI had developed significantly since the early war, it wasn't just sitting in trenches or sending mindless waves of troops over the top)

Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by chrisseaton on Monday June 14, 2021 @10:14AM (#27502759)
You would suppress the trench using fire support, so that they have their heads down and not able to fire back, allowing you to approach it.
Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by jccooper on Monday June 14, 2021 @11:37AM (#27503876)
Attacks would commonly get to the first line or two of trenches; the trick was keeping them, given counterattacks. There were many lines of trenches still in front.
Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by Mauricebranagh on Monday June 14, 2021 @01:08PM (#27505143)
Shotguns where more for trench raiding along with improvised clubs etc
Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by pixodaros on Monday June 14, 2021 @02:23PM (#27506220)
The obstacle to that method was that someone had to go over the top, cross several yards of ground, and then look down into the next straight section of trench. If there was someone waiting with a MG or a rifle, Mr. Brave got shot and then everyone had a casualty in the open to deal with plus Jerry around the corner.
Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by hutzlibu on Monday June 14, 2021 @08:18AM (#27501706)
The hypocrysis of the german government/army of that time, is staggering. They were the the ones, who introduced chemical weapons, poison gas, to the battlefield - and then cried about shotguns?!

Oh and later, when the war was lost, it was of course the fault of the communist and socialdemocrats, who stabbed the army in the back and not of the glorious, heroic army. And there are still lots of people glorifying the Kaiserreich. I am glad its gone.

Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by meinersbur on Monday June 14, 2021 @09:17AM (#27502142)
They were not the ones who introduces gas warfare into WW1. It was the French: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrHFEPu_ANI&t=80s

The Hague Convention of 1899 banned chemical warfare, with the US being the only ones to not have signed it.

Doesn't mean that the Germans weren't hypocrits, the complains about shotguns might have been rooted in wanting to point fingers back: https://youtu.be/fvrIVZn1jH8

Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by greesil on Monday June 14, 2021 @11:25AM (#27503709)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_Wa...

The French used tear gas first, the Germans were the first to use chlorine. There's a big difference between these gasses.

Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by hutzlibu on Monday June 14, 2021 @04:14PM (#27507710)
Yes, you cannot really compare tear gas with chlorine.

One gives you trouble breathing and is used widely against civilian demonstrants, because it is very mild - the other one - the one the german army was first to use - kills or cripples your loungs in a horrible way.

But I rather leave this debate.

P.s. I tasted some tear gas, it is certainly not nice. But thats it. It doesn't actually harm you, unless you have a precondition. Chlorine on the other hand is just pure deadly poison

Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by greesil on Monday June 14, 2021 @05:17PM (#27508417)
I mean, it was war. Conventions are nice, but my read on both world wars nobody actually cared, they just practiced tit for tat.

The comment I was responding to made what I interpreted as a false equivalence.

Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by lainga on Monday June 14, 2021 @01:31PM (#27505430)
Same with flechettes, to which end they were stamped with "INVENTION FRANCAIS, FABRICATION ALLEMAND" ("Invented in France, made in Germany").
Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by NikolaeVarius on Monday June 14, 2021 @10:45AM (#27503175)
You have a,very distorted knowledge of WW1 and the post war years in Germany.
Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by marton78 on Monday June 14, 2021 @12:23PM (#27504534)
Care to elaborate?
Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by kingsuper20 on Monday June 14, 2021 @09:08AM (#27502055)
I think the French were first.
Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by Bost on Monday June 14, 2021 @09:05AM (#27502037)
> The hypocrysis of the german government/army of that time, is staggering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_...

All sides started to develop these weapons before the war, and apparently it's the Germans who were capable of deploying these weapons sooner and with greater success.

What you present here nothing less than a one-sided propaganda. It reminds of French villages hundreds of kilometers far from any WWI front line, deep in the rear with memorials dedicated to "Innocent children fallen in the great war" followed by a list of some 10 to 15 male names.

Innocent children, the throat cutter sort, same as those from the other side.

Re:Tricks of Trench Warfare (2020) by thatguy0900 on Monday June 14, 2021 @11:33AM (#27503825)
Is it fair to call the ones who were declared war on "throat cutters"? Especially since they almost certainly didn't want to be there anyway.