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Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by rawtxapp on Sunday June 13, 2021 @11:03PM (#27498839)
Look at it this way, if Bitcoin/crypto fails, then you have nothing to worry about, since they'll just go away and there will be no environmental concerns. In this scenario, you lose the 1% you invested.

If they succeed on the other hand at becoming world reserve currency, then that energy usage will be justified since it's replacing something that takes even more energy (current fiat system). In this scenario, your 1% investment has probably grown to be a much larger % of your portfolio.

Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by analog31 on Sunday June 13, 2021 @11:17PM (#27498918)
In my view, the energy cost of crypto is on top of the cost of the mainstream system. The mainstream system is what supports great ventures such as widespread energy distribution, manufacturing of computers, telecommunications, international shipping, and so forth. And it provides the goods and services that are worth spending bitcoins on.

Note I've had similar debates with my kids: "Why don't we just replace the entire economy and political system with X?"

Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by tablespoon on Monday June 14, 2021 @01:05AM (#27499468)
> then that energy usage will be justified since it's replacing something that takes even more energy (current fiat system).

I really doubt that, at least with proof-of-work cryptocurrencies, since a competitive waste of resources is at the very core of their design (e.g. he who can waste the most, wins). The equivalent part of the fiat network is far more efficient (e.g. a basic money transfer probably takes as much power as a couple of HTTPS web requests to a dynamic website).

Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by beiller on Monday June 14, 2021 @02:07AM (#27499754)
He who wastes the most wins is not a description of the incentives in my opinion. Miners actually need to be efficient to win. It's why Bitcoin is driven by ASIC chips right now. They are on the cutting edge of computational efficiency and you may not realize, but have been driving technology quite a lot especially chip technogy and "computer programs directly to chip" tech. And guess how much potential energy consumption that saves. Think overclocking a 386 cpu to 1ghz vs chip tech today. Now imagine how ASIC design can potentially cut that even further for general purpose computing.
Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by imtringued on Monday June 14, 2021 @06:55AM (#27501168)
ASICs just shift energy costs from energy spent on mining to energy spent on making ASICs. The economics don't change. If the reward is $60k you must destroy $60k.
Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by beiller on Monday June 14, 2021 @10:11AM (#27502710)
But what Im saying is the ASIC tech is applied to other chips not in the Bitcoin space making computing more efficient overall. This future savings dwarfs the current usage.
Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by tablespoon on Monday June 14, 2021 @12:14PM (#27504400)
> But what Im saying is the ASIC tech is applied to other chips not in the Bitcoin space making computing more efficient overall. This future savings dwarfs the current usage.

Is the development of bitcoin ASICs actually driving any general purpose advances? My understanding is they were just applying existing advanced technology to Bitcoin. The idea of an ASIC isn't new, and Bitcoin mining is niche compared to other areas (e.g. cell phone processors, desktop CPUs & GPUs)

Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by beiller on Monday June 14, 2021 @03:39PM (#27507254)
We are venturing on my opinions now but yes, the ASIC development is important in my opinion. It really is exercising the "pipeline" for computer programs baked directly into chips. It is the direction the industry is moving and why you see so much activity in the RISC-V space for example. This tech is the future for faster computing / more efficient computing. I am not actually sure though if tech like RISC-V is used today in the ASIC miners. I think I'll look into that.
Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by louloulou on Monday June 14, 2021 @01:15AM (#27499506)
Conveniently ignoring how the exponentially increasing fiat supply incentivises pulling forward consumption from the future to be spent on unnecessary things today. Thereby massively misallocating investment in the world simply because people don't have a sound money which they can save for the future.
Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by tablespoon on Monday June 14, 2021 @01:29AM (#27499573)
> Conveniently ignoring how the exponentially increasing fiat supply incentivises pulling forward consumption from the future to be spent on unnecessary things today.

Isn't that called keeping the economy going? There are people and physical capital that need something to do today. You can't save today's time for tomorrow, no matter what kind of money you have.

> Thereby massively misallocating investment in the world simply because people don't have a sound money which they can save for the future.

That sounds a lot like a depression, which probably wouldn't be too painful of an experience to the few people sitting on hoards of money, waiting for the choicest investment opportunities. Everyone else on the other hand...

Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by imtringued on Monday June 14, 2021 @07:35AM (#27501402)
>Isn't that called keeping the economy going? There are people and physical capital that need something to do today. You can't save today's time for tomorrow, no matter what kind of money you have.

Yes, saving is impossible. The shiny gold rock doesn't wither. It will be long there after your death.

A shiny rock isn't meaningfully different from fiat either. It's just a token that represents an entry in a ledger. That rock represents that someone else owes you a debt but that debt continues to exist after your death. The only way that debt can be repaid is if someone completely unrelated is born in the future and works to repay the debt of a long dead person. This can't work because that person also has to work for himself to pay for food and shelter. The only reason it works today is because population and productivity growth has exploded and can take care of that debt and even pay above and beyond the original debt.

The reason why fiat rots (inflation) is that the rest of the world rots as well. Gold is the exception, it doesn't rot, therefore it lets you pretend that the rest of the world doesn't rot.

Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by imtringued on Monday June 14, 2021 @07:31AM (#27501379)
This is wrong. First, there is no such thing as sound money.

Second, the problem with fiat is that people are saving too much to the point where we have underemployment and in some countries extreme amounts of youth unemployment.

The gold standard failed because the supply of gold was not growing fast enough. The constraints of money creation under a gold standard constrained the maximum size of the economy.

The underlying reasoning behind fiat is that money creation should be driven by demand so that the money supply grows with the economy. A good approximation is that private debt creation follows demand. A growing economy needs loans to finance expansion, therefore creating loans will ensure the money supply catches up with economic growth.

However, the obvious problem is that loans have to be paid back and paying back loans contracts the money supply. If the economy needs $4 trillion and growth ceases then we will actually fall short of the $4 trillion and we will enter deflation and deflation is a self reinforcing cycle that prevents further growth. We are running into the same problem as the gold standard. The money in circulation is not adjusting to the level needed for the economy. The private banking sector as the sole source of money simply isn't enough as it requires lowering the interest rates until you hit 0%. Without negative interest rates the system just stops there. This isn't surprising. Tally sticks [0] function the exact same way as fiat does. There isn't enough silver/gold in circulation so people create a ledger on top of it. When the ledger has served its purpose the two sticks (each representing credit and debit) are united and then destroyed together. A short term fall in growth doesn't imply that we have reached the end of growth. Ending the economy today is obviously a mistake.

What is needed is a secondary method of money issuance in the hand of the public. Direct issuance of money by the government generally suffers from discipline problems. Politicians just can't get enough money and when there is too much of it they refuse to stop, often there are legitimate reasons to not stop. What we'd need is an independent organization whose sole function is money issuance based on a macroeconomic measure that is important even if we don't have real growth right now.

Turns out, what the fiat system needs isn't real growth to begin with. It only needs nominal growth. That is, nominal growth caused by inflation is just as good as real growth as it still stimulates organic debt creation and therefore a demand driven increase in the money supply. As we are merely fighting off a contraction in the money supply, the destination of the issued money is not important, as long as it drives inflation. You can hand the money to unemployed people if that helps to drive inflation.

One unique difference between private banks and public government is that banks require you to return the money via monthly payments. Governments require you to return the money via taxation. This difference means that publicly issued money doesn't have to disappear on a schedule, it only has to disappear when there is too much of it, e.g. you are suffering from too high inflation. An inflation based tax policy could solve this problem.

If we went back to the gold standard we would run in the same not enough money for the economy problem except it would be even worse. Interest rates would have to be very negative. -10% interest probably wouldn't be an exaggeration but then people just withdraw their gold for risk free gains and we'd have no economy to speak of whatsoever.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick

Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by eldfgl on Monday June 14, 2021 @01:27AM (#27499560)
Read about the lightning network
Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by tablespoon on Monday June 14, 2021 @01:33AM (#27499593)
> Read about the lightning network

How does the lighting network obviate the need for mining, which is the deliberately wasteful part?

Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by im_down_w_otp on Sunday June 13, 2021 @11:05PM (#27498854)
I've never seen an energy consumption breakdown of what it takes to run the branches of the Federal Reserve or the Treasury. Do you have any primary source material on that?
Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by FpUser on Sunday June 13, 2021 @11:23PM (#27498943)
War in Libya was initiated to prevent erosion of the US dollar as a world reserve currency among the other things. You are free to calculate how much energy went into it. I am sure there are more big energy consuming "contributions" in facilitating current financial system.
Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by gwicks56 on Sunday June 13, 2021 @11:09PM (#27498875)
The USA dollar is the settlement currency of the world. Which means you are really looking at the energy use of the Army/Navy/Air-force. If, in this hypothetical future, BTC became the settlement record.
Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by wwweston on Sunday June 13, 2021 @11:12PM (#27498896)
If you assume:

(a) the energy of the Army/Navy/Air-force supports nothing other than US currency

(b) no force would be necessary to back compliance with entries in a crypto ledger

Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by jayd16 on Sunday June 13, 2021 @11:15PM (#27498910)
As if BTC would somehow eliminate the army, navy and air-force.
Re:Why gold and Bitcoin are popular by ramchip on Sunday June 13, 2021 @11:12PM (#27498890)
I don't follow this reasoning - why would moving to BTC as a global settlement currency make armed forces obsolete?