No less elitist though. The idea of a selective college is elitist. The more selective, the more elitist. All the progressive talk is cant.
> No less elitist though. The idea of a selective college is elitist.
What does that mean? By that definition, everything selective is 'elitist', including my high school wrestling team. By non-elitist, we generally mean it's not biased in favor of the people who are already in society's elite.
Some top colleges now admit much more economically and ethnically diverse students. I've seen the applications, and they've reduced processes that select for children of the elite (such as standardized tests). In other words, they aren't admitting the children of elite (or not as much) - I think that is meaningful.
(I wish I could provide some citations, but I don't have time or anything at my fingertips.)
> All the progressive talk is cant.
Am I responding to nothing more than mindless anti-progressivism?
Yes, there are lots more black and Hispanic students than before, and since the universities refuse to share the data we can’t be sure that this increase in diversity mostly means more children of Nigerian doctors and Colombian lawyers, mostly paying full international student fees but that’s the way to bet.
Regarding economic diversity.
Harvard[1], Yale[2], Princeton[3] Stanford[4] all have average family incomes above $160,000. Less selective colleges with smaller endowments that need the money from fees more are not going to be more economically diverse if they can possibly avoid it.
Selecting by standardized test scores would result in a substantially less socially elite student body than the current system. A more Asian one. Stopping that is why there’s a movement to get rid of the SATs. Asians are being discriminated against now as Jews were in the early 20th century, for similar reasons.
[1] According to The New York Times, the median family income of a student from Harvard is $168,800, and 67% of students come from the highest-earning 20% of American households. About 15% come from families in the top 1% of American wealth distribution.
[2] According to The New York Times, the median family income of a student from Yale is $192,600. Roughly 69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% of American households.
[3] According to The New York Times, the median family income of a student from Princeton is $186,100, and 72% come from the highest-earning 20% of American households
[4] According to The New York Times, the median family income of a student from Stanford is $167,500
That doesn't tell us if the economic diversity is increasing or decreasing. My understanding is that it is significantly increasing for (at least some) elite schools, but I don't have cites so ...
> Selecting by standardized test scores would result in a substantially less socially elite student body than the current system.
That is certainly counter to the general wisdom, which is why (as I understand it) they stopped requiring the tests. The tests were considered biased toward the socially elite, and IIRC there was plenty of research behind it, because the elite have the time and money (tutors, classes, etc.) to prepare test-taking skills - which is not a skill the colleges seek - and the questions were written about elite culture (e.g., 'You are sailing your yacht into the wind ...').
The SAT, GRE, LSAT and similar lightly disguised IQ tests are designed to be as close to culture fair and uncoachable as possible and they do pretty well. Mostly the children of the well educated and rich get higher scores on them than the less fortunate for the same reason the children of professional basket players are tall. People resemble their parents.
The anecdote you recount about a question with a yacht never happened. The analogy question was removed in 2005[1].
[1] https://www.clearchoiceprep.com/sat-act-prep-blog/the-most-i...
Except the most elite schools are the ones that are clinging to keeping standardized tests in their admissions processes, they only dropped it for the incoming class because of the pandemic.
Why does it matter? They are less selective so anyone has a better chance of getting in.
I went to CC in high school and a non selective engineering school. I’ve seen non-elitist and non-elite institutions.
I don't understand how the latter implies the former ?
FWIW: I recently saw the applications to several American elite colleges. All asked, one way or the other, 'how will our institution in particular help you in particular?', and 'how will you in particular contribute to our institution in particular?'. They seemed focused on the finding students who would benefit most and contribute most, not on a contest to see who gets the best credential.
Same. I think they are hoping Biden will put more money into public schools and stop preferential tax treatments for the large endowments.
> It's not a surprise. Cotton and his party see Ivy League universities as institutions of the political opposition, whom they attack and want to punish and diminish.
Tom Cotton... Harvard University BA , JD
You are right that it fits the public narrative & rhetoric, but many (perhaps most) of them went to elite schools. It is probably just posturing.
What if we dropped the inflammatory political attack and just talked about loan forgiveness? Can an idea or anything else be depoliticized.
And it does have some benefits, in addition to that drawback. I'm not sure about the extent or nature of it - many leading colleges reduce their prices to get the students in the door - has anyone studied it?
That's a bit mind-boggling, but not the first time I've seen it. My hypothesis: Middle-ground liberals are intimidated by abusive conservatives, but they feel safe criticizing progressives. You won't get flamed on HN, for example, for what you posted.
True, but you can be expensive & private & not be elite (most of them are not by definition).
[EDIT] I know Cotton isn't one of them, I'm just pointing out that this elitism sure as hell appears to be a driving factor in who's on top in both parties.
Edit: Correction I forgot McCain
Bush - Philips Academy
Gore - St Albans School
Kerry - St Pauls
Obama - Punahou School (On scholarship!)
McCain - Episcopal High School
Romney - Cranbrook School
Trump - New York Military Academy
> You are right that it fits the public narrative & rhetoric, but many (perhaps most) of them went to elite schools. It is probably just posturing.
Oh yeah; I didn't mean to say otherwise. Most of what they say is posturing, IMHO.
It's well known that elite universities are elitist in their admissions and have over-large endowments. And the elite universities have acted on it, and many of their new classes are very different. And it's well known that the rest of the U.S. educational system is underfunded.
> Sen. Tom Cotton, of all political leaders, suggested taxing private colleges with large endowments, and redirecting funds to vocational training.
It's not a surprise. Cotton and his party see Ivy League universities as institutions of the political opposition, whom they attack and want to punish and diminish.