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Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by lozaning on Friday June 11, 2021 @04:48PM (#27478284)
I freaked a bunch of FBI agents out a while back by Base64 encoding a photo of an FBI logo and writing that to the Eth chain. They have massive concerns around this regarding data exfiltration. The cost of removing the data, once written to a chain, is essentially equal to the market cap of the coin for that chain.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by dkokelley on Friday June 11, 2021 @05:07PM (#27478499)
Another thought experiment:

What would happen if someone encoded something horrible and illegal like child porn into a blockchain? Is everyone who operates on that chain guilty of possession? Does that make a specific crypto "illegal" if its blockchain contains illegal content?

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by tick_tock_tick on Friday June 11, 2021 @06:37PM (#27479357)
People already added it into bitcoin if you stretch the definition a bit. As in the bits needed to reconstruct the image exist in the chain.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by sneak on Friday June 11, 2021 @07:50PM (#27479918)
> People already added it into bitcoin if you stretch the definition a bit.

Which is a fancy way of saying that they haven't. The only images in the bitcoin blockchain are ascii art.

There are plenty of hashes of different types of data in the bitcoin blockchain, but hashes are not the hash function's input data.

Schneier himself repeated this bogus "there's illegal content in the bitcoin blockchain already!" claim, which shows the legs this false meme has on it.

Please stop repeating this falsehood.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by dkokelley on Friday June 11, 2021 @09:09PM (#27480415)
I agree that a hash of data != the source data, but these links seem to indicate that it is at least possible, if not already evident, that illegal images and content can be encoded into the bitcoin blockchain (and presumably other blockchains that permit similar writing to the ledger)

JPG of Nelson Mandela encoded into bitcoin blockchain: http://www.righto.com/2014/02/ascii-bernanke-wikileaks-photo...

Illegal porn and classified documents embedded in the blockchain (page 3): https://www.accenture.com/_acnmedia/pdf-33/accenture-editing...

Original research source: https://fc18.ifca.ai/preproceedings/6.pdf

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by userbinator on Saturday June 12, 2021 @12:31AM (#27481552)
The data may may have been encrypted with a key that only some people know, and to others it's just random noise.

By that definition, however, every file could be transformed into an illegal one through a suitable cipher and key.

Then there's the concept of steganography.

Digital data is interesting for sure.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by dkokelley on Friday June 11, 2021 @07:03PM (#27479561)
Really? That’s very sad, but I’m not too surprised.

(Unless you’re saying that the bits 0 and 1 already exist in the blockchain, which is reaaaaallllyyy stretching the definition.)

There’s the concept of “illegal numbers”, which means that there are technically numeric representations of images or copyrighted material that you can’t know/possess without breaking a law. But the law is subjective which is why we have judges and juries to apply judgement to whether having a large number written on a piece of paper is equivalent to possessing illegal material.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by lostmsu on Friday June 11, 2021 @05:31PM (#27478755)
If you extend it wide enough, one should ban natural numbers because some of them in binary form are identical to child pornography video files.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by dkokelley on Friday June 11, 2021 @07:04PM (#27479568)
Take a look at “illegal numbers” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number

Copied from another comment:

=======

There’s the concept of “illegal numbers”, which means that there are technically numeric representations of images or copyrighted material that you can’t know/possess without breaking a law. But the law is subjective which is why we have judges and juries to apply judgement to whether having a large number written on a piece of paper is equivalent to possessions illegal material.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by dorgo on Saturday June 12, 2021 @06:06AM (#27483246)
And don't forget random number generators. They are just evil sometimes.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by ntauthority on Saturday June 12, 2021 @07:12AM (#27483619)
It is amazing that the output of a random number generator can be considered a core part of a DMCA-style 'illegal to work around' anti-circumvention solution.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by CDRdude on Friday June 11, 2021 @04:50PM (#27478309)
I don’t understand. Why did this freak out a bunch of FBI agents?
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by lozaning on Friday June 11, 2021 @05:56PM (#27478981)
Because the data is there _forever_ and there's not really anything they can do about it, which stands in stark contrast to how they're used to operating.

There is no person they can throw in jail, no corporation that can be sued, no servers that can be seized, domains taken over, etc, that will result in that data no longer being available to those that know where to look for it.

The data just remains online until such a time that the coins of a given chain are worth $0.0 and coin holders no longer have a financial incentive to keep the ledger online.

FWIW the ones I talked to where more of the door kicking variety, not the 'cyber' type.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by int_19h on Friday June 11, 2021 @06:38PM (#27479364)
But why would they freak out about a logo?
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by lozaning on Friday June 11, 2021 @07:03PM (#27479557)
Well I don't have any actual secret bunker blueprints or nuclear submarine specs or w/e. It was an extremely simple PoC where I gave them them an Eth txID and a link to a site like https://base64.guru/converter/decode/image/jpg

The point wasnt that I put their logo on a chain, its that I could put a photo online that the states monopoly on violence was entirely incapable of removing.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by gninazol on Friday June 11, 2021 @04:58PM (#27478401)
Are you asking why it freaked out real FBI agents or the ones in lozaning's imagination?

The FBI doesn't give a single damn hoot about "data exfiltration" via blockchain metadata. Anyone with half an understanding of any of those terms knows what an absurd implication that is.

For concerns about "data exfiltration", discussing blockchain doesn't even make a single damn bit of sense. Blockchain is about impermanence and publishing, not about "exfiltration".

I'm not sure which is more amusing, thinking that the FBI would give a hoot about b64-encoded data in the metadata of a transaction, or that this person wrote that comment on HN to try and seem cool. LOL, what, the FBI reached out to them (how?/why? nothing about this makes sense)?

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by aeturnum on Friday June 11, 2021 @07:46PM (#27479891)
The FBI is used to situations where they can issue targeted takedown orders when groups publish illegal information, but blockchain setups complicate the situation. How does a company "providing" an immutable blockchain stop providing illegal / unlicensed content? Does the fact that their blockchain contains illegal / unlicensed content mean the service is illegal to operate in the US? The alternative is having some sort of legal safe harbor where there is content that, in other circumstances, you would not be allowed to distribute but you can because you are on the blockchain.

Lots of distasteful outcomes possible.

Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by IncRnd on Friday June 11, 2021 @06:05PM (#27479068)
The reason is that it is illegal to use the FBI logo unless authorized to do so.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by the_pwner224 on Friday June 11, 2021 @07:55PM (#27479950)
It is not.
Re:Few people know that Google voluntarily removes some sear... by IncRnd on Friday June 11, 2021 @08:06PM (#27480020)
"It has come to the attention of the FBI that “Fair Use Warnings” accompanied by an image of the FBI seal (or similar insignia) have been posted on various websites, giving the appearance that the FBI has created or authorized these notices to advise the public about the fair use doctrine in U.S. copyright law. The FBI recognizes that the fair use of copyrighted materials, as codified in Title 17, United States Code, section 107, does not constitute infringement. These warnings, however, are not authorized or endorsed by the FBI. Unauthorized use of the FBI seal (or colorable imitations) may be punishable under Title 18 United States Code, Sections 701, 709, or other applicable law." [1]

[1] https://www.fbi.gov/history/seal-motto