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Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by hughrr on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:36AM (#27457549)
So much this. I hope I don't stand on too many toes here. Actually I don't care.

My father has a self driving enabled Tesla Model S which he paid a hell of a lot of money for that he doesn't have as he's in his 70s, living entirely off the remains of the house he just sold. He's convinced it'll be any day now that he gets full self driving and that it'll change the world. He tells me he loves the car and phones me daily to tell me about it. But at the end of the day there are a bunch of complaints hiding in his words. This covers everything from poor fitting, paint issues, weird bugs, massive safety and computer issues, lots of hidden costs and general battery life issues. He's hiding the true picture which is not the real experience.

Between Tesla marketing and the echo chamber Tesla forums, he's traded his entire cash pile and attention for what I can only describe as a prototype that is a ball and chain which limps between bouts of charging CPR and he can't tell anyone because it might damage his conspicuous virtuous electric car identity.

But Tesla will be introducing self driving any day now he tells me. All the time. For the last 3 years...

I'm not really a proponent or opponent of electric cars. I don't really care about the things as they don't factor into my life past the utility of a screwdriver. I myself drive a third-hand Citroen with a tuk tuk engine in it which was cheap to buy and run and takes me to the shops and for the odd weekend out. But from my vantage point, I can't see the return of investment that such complex technology can add to a simple problem. All it does is make it more complicated, less safe and less reliable while milking people for cash for promises which may never materialise. If there's anything I've worked out over the last couple of decades in the software industry is that this model really doesn't work - it's the marketing and development model that Microsoft uses.

Edit: he literally just phoned me to tell me how wonderful it is again. But it cost him 5% of the battery capacity to cool it down enough that it’s not going to burn his ass off (has sunroof) which means his next journey is going to have to end with a 10 mile detour to sit in a supercharger bay (which where he lives will be busy and he’ll have to wait) and thus probably cost a coffee at the same time.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by tails4e on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:48AM (#27458060)
If you leave the self driving aside, the model s is an amazing car. Compared with a high end bmw/merc/audi you get more features as standard - though I do admit the finish/build quality on those cars is superior. I have a 4 year old MS, and genuinely like it and love the acceleration/nimbleness and have experienced very few issues. I'd consider tesla again for my next car, but FSD would not be a factor either way.
Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by hughrr on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:03AM (#27458172)
I don’t buy on features myself because quite frankly every damn car I’ve hired or bought which has anything other than basic features is chock full of bugs and has to be fixed every two minutes. Auto companies just can’t and shouldn’t write any high level software at all and low level embedded stuff is even pretty awful. They just can’t support it properly. Tesla are a notable exception to this as in they actually offer OTA updates to their vehicles but the general rule is a big stinking thumbs down.

I mean the worst of this is the Range Rover I hired for a wedding to drive the bride in. Headlights gave out due to an electrical problem with CANbus when I was driving it back to the hire return. Just give me some fuses, switches and relays thanks.

My iPhone has 100x better navigation, media and communications support than anything else I’ve used. So I just slave it to the car with BT. I don’t even use CarPlay because bugs (Ford, Land Rover, Citroen in particular).

Keep the software and hardware separate and keep the hardware simple.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by nicbou on Thursday June 10, 2021 @05:16AM (#27458624)
I think you are simply from a different breed of drivers. I assume you also wrench on those cars?

I also bet on simplicity, both because it's much cheaper, and because it gives me less trouble. Fuses, switches and relays, as you say.

I simply don't trust a company who already has my money to maintain a software package on wheels, and I just don't trust software in general.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by tempestn on Friday June 11, 2021 @01:10AM (#27469523)
Used Model S's I'd agree with you. The new ones where you're apparently going to need to drive with a yoke, and without a turn signal stalk or wiper controls outside of the touchscreen... not so much. Tesla has a great electric powertrain and charging network; I just wish they'd stick to that and leave off all the nonsense. (See also, falcon wing doors, and air vents you need to adjust via a touch screen menu.)
Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by wil421 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @08:52AM (#27460102)
The interior of any Tesla is light years behind a BMW/Merc/Audi. My wife recently got an x7 and even my Grand Cherokee seems nicer in some ways than a Tesla.

For the price of a Tesla you should be getting so much more inside especially at the S/X price level. Compared to the Mercs and BMWs I looked at a Tesla was more comparable to a nice Honda.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by oh_sigh on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:13PM (#27463044)
You need to compare like to like. Yes, the finish in Mercs and BMWs is better, but you're also comparing an ICE to an EV.

Look at what BMW offers for an EV. The i3, at $44k base. The i3 is basically a midlevel compact sedan. The Model 3, which you can get for $4k cheaper, is a way better deal IMHO.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by tails4e on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:53PM (#27465678)
What's particularly lacking in the MS interior? Very comfortable, leather all round, heated and adjustable seats. Best infotainment/nav system hands down, glass panoramic roof, and a very clean look.
Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by ec109685 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:43AM (#27457588)
Obviously you know your father best, but it at least seems from your words it makes him happy.

As someone with similar car, you get to know it’s quirks and use it when it adds value.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by hughrr on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:49AM (#27457626)
It makes him tell everyone he's happy but that's where it ends. He's got too much pride to tell the truth.

And those aren't quirks; they are big stinking problems. Never write down a problem as something that isn't one. I owned a Merc 190E once that was a bag of problems. My life got better and I got happier the day I acknowledged them and got rid of it.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by throwaway0a5e on Thursday June 10, 2021 @09:00AM (#27460178)
>It makes him tell everyone he's happy but that's where it ends. He's got too much pride to tell the truth.

Toyota frames rust out. KitchenAid gears strip (and half the stuff they put their name on is just badged garbage to begin with). Snap On tools break. LL Bean stuff wears our prematurely. Being in a "good school district" fails to magically make your kid successful. The guy with the $2k fishing setup gets out-fished by the teenager with the $40 setup who knows what makes the fish in that spot bite. Fancy pans don't make you a good cook. But yet people do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify the things they paid top dollar for as still being the best crap ever even when they fail them. Nobody expects stuff made at scale to be perfect 100% of the time but the owners of premium stuff sure act like that is the case.

You see this sort of failure denialism with all sorts of premium products. People actively refuse to believe that something else, something cheaper, could have been equivalent or better for their use case.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by mnadkvlb on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:06AM (#27460937)
I will keep this comment as a favorite. Thank you. very few people dare admit to bad decisions. When you see someone open to admitting bad decisions, hire them if u can.
Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by pjc50 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @06:50AM (#27459195)
> It makes him tell everyone he's happy but that's where it ends. He's got too much pride to tell the truth.

This seems to be a very 21st century phenomenon; product marketing gets replaced by cult membership. You don't buy a Tesla to experience a great car, you buy Tesla to tell everyone how great the experience is.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by IgorPartola on Thursday June 10, 2021 @08:51AM (#27460091)
It’s a very human problem from like 40k years ago. We evolved to belong to tribes and feel most comfortable in them. The difference is that with how mobile we are now, both physically and as far as our ability to communicate, we can now form tribes not based on our family and geographic location (which often times doesn’t fit us all that well) but based on what products we consume: cars we buy, video games we play, music we listen to, etc. These consumer tribes are exactly like every other tribe we have formed before, just look novel because of the focus of them. This is why you’ll see people talk about how “the Harley meet up guys are just the nicest people”. It’s only partially about the product, mostly about the sense of belonging.

And before anyone calls this sad (which it might or might not be), consider that the alternative is either isolation by rejecting all forms of tribalism, or tribes formed around more harmful old school ideas (religious cults, violence-based tribes, tribes based on race/gender/etc.), or tribes we were born into and have no choice to leave because we can’t just buy the services of a farmer, a plumber, or a babysitter and have to rely exclusively on our tribe for those kinds of needs.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by Dah00n on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:05AM (#27460917)
There are alternatives that doesn't go as far as isolation or religion of course. You mention a great example yourself that shows how you can be extreme/religious for no good reason when a open alternative is clearly present:

It's a worldwide phenomenon that motorcyclists in general wants to be open and inclusive. We wave to each other when we pass on the road, talk when we meet at gas stations and so on. But a Harley is not a motorcycle, it is a Harley. Most don't wave back, all frown if you try to talk to them if not out on your own Harley today but some Japanese bike and so on. Tesla and Apple users are very often in the same category of religious fanaticism for no good reason except brand loyalty. That is sad as one should be able to own a Harley, be part of a Harley crowd and not be religious about it but most (not all!) fall into this trap.

A tribe that is divided because of some businesses PR is always sad and harmful.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by IgorPartola on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:59PM (#27465756)
Heh. So I ride with mostly Harley guys though I don’t ride a Harley. One of the reasons we don’t wave back when riding as a group is that we use hand signals to communicate and waving looks like a left turn signal. As a result, we aren’t allowed to wave on group rides.

Secondary thing is that motorcycling is just a larger and looser consumer tribe than Harley or Yamaha or Ducati riders. Not quite as large as motorcycles + trikes, which is still smaller than bikes, trikes, and scooters. To some degree it is turtles all the way down in terms of how exclusive vs inclusive you want to be.

I personally don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with consumer tribes. The question is how does each one treat its members and newcomers and is it a healthy environment for everyone involved?

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by Dah00n on Friday June 11, 2021 @04:39AM (#27470768)
I can see how a group ride could see it like this but single Harley riders don't greet you back either (unless I'm on a Harley or something they in passing might think is a Harley).

I'm guessing you are from the US, which I'm not, but I have never seen this in other bikers no matter the brand. Sure Ducati guys often hang out with eachother at a meet, as do other groups, but it's not like they don't greet other riders.

Heck, I even wave (end get waved at) when I drive my Alfa Romeo by both other Alfa drivers but also people in classic cars (and a few Ducati riders even). Totally different cultures than Harley riders, which I think is sad.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by callamdelaney on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:39AM (#27458408)
I own a Tesla, have the base model 3 and didn't pay for full self driving. On motorways and A roads the self drive experience is reasonably adequate. Naturally, on any reasonably long journey there are dozens of times you'll have to take over from autopilot and steer around some corner or some hazard.

It really doesn't bother me whether it gets better or they add full self driving. Charging your car isn't a big stinking problem, it's an inherent feature.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by hughrr on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:54AM (#27458499)
Model 3 is a much better proposition on features and price though.
Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by SamBam on Thursday June 10, 2021 @09:07AM (#27460235)
GP's post makes it sound like the father is stuck with wanting to love it, and needing to show how much he loves it, to justify his choice and stave off buyer's remorse. That's fairly common when people make a purchase that's too expensive and then is not quite as perfect as they had hoped.

Obviously we don't know GP's dad, but that was clearly the intent of GP's post.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by mikestew on Thursday June 10, 2021 @11:50AM (#27462101)
I was reminded of campfire discussions of specific brands of motorcycles while reading GP's post. Some of those owners really go out of their way to justify the purchase, while I'm pretty sure they're only trying to convince themselves.
Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by hughrr on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:46AM (#27461369)
Yea that’s exactly it.
Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by croon on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:14AM (#27458251)
Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by SV_BubbleTime on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:54AM (#27457664)
I was working for a tier-1 supplier in Detroit when Tesla announced their first car that wasn’t the lotus body, a vp at a supplier laughed and said “they’re about to find out how hard it is to build cars”. This guy knew cars and every time I hear someone with negative feedback on Tesla’s I think about that.

I’ve heard more people describe it as “a computer with wheels” than I can remember.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by hughrr on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:04AM (#27458183)
Yep. This.

I’m even more sharp with the description. It’s a no brand android tablet with wheels.

My Citroen feels better put together and it’s made of cooking foil.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by Dah00n on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:16AM (#27461043)
To be fair Citroen has made a lot of innovation from cooking foil!
Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by hughrr on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:48AM (#27461380)
Oh yes indeed. It’s cheap, safe, reliable and runs on mosquito fart quantities of gas.
Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by Marciplan on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:13AM (#27458240)
Genuinely curious: why haven’t you helped him try to get these bugs and issues resolved?
Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by hughrr on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:20AM (#27458291)
He’s a qualified engineer and ran a software company for 30 years. He knows his shit already so I don’t need to.

But fundamentally the issues are flawed analysis rather than defective implementation.

Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by Dah00n on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:13AM (#27461011)
In my experience that is equivalent to trying to help a Harley Davidson owner fix his engine so it doesn't leak or vibrate excessively.
Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by gspr on Thursday June 10, 2021 @05:41AM (#27458798)
I'm sorry for your father. It's sad to see Musk fan the cultism in his followers :-(
Re:What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hop... by hughrr on Thursday June 10, 2021 @06:36AM (#27459112)
I rest in the knowledge that it is at least a relatively harmless cult in the scale of things.