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Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by tomnipotent on Saturday June 05, 2021 @12:02AM (#27402050)
> it provides the leftist

It's no different than the far-right unfalsifiable standards that were enforced for centuries, more often than not with religious overtones. Let's not pretend this is a left/right thing, so much as it's just an extremist thing. Only now, the leftist is using the outrage tactic just as effectively as the right, which has lost a lot of its moral high ground on most social issues.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by jb775 on Saturday June 05, 2021 @12:33AM (#27402208)
> It's no different than the far-right unfalsifiable standards that were enforced for centuries

Not sure what you mean. Examples?

I wouldn't say it's an extremist thing, considering the Kafkatrap setup tactic is being actively used by people with different degrees of leftness. It applies to any topic where one person/group claims/claimed to be a victim in any way/shape/form. My source article explains in detail.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by dlivingston on Saturday June 05, 2021 @01:33AM (#27402506)
A number of examples come to mind, but the most prominent is the Red Scare.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by throwaway894345 on Saturday June 05, 2021 @05:02AM (#27403418)
Not probably your point, but I’ve always found comparisons between the present moral panic and the Red Scare to be interesting. Notably, the extreme measures and intense paranoia of the Red Scare took place against the backdrop of a credible existential threat—global thermonuclear war. We now have the benefit of hindsight, but it wasn’t clear to people at the time that the situation would stabilize, which is to say their extreme measures make some amount of sense (I can sympathize with abandoning lofty liberal ideals in such a moment). On the other hand, the current moral panic has no similar justification—it’s a naked power grab by a group of ideological authoritarians who can’t even be bothered to pretend to act in accordance with their own stated beliefs. Neither the RS nor the present panic are rightful, but one is at least sorta understandable.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by ryanbrunner on Saturday June 05, 2021 @06:43AM (#27403835)
That really all depends on your definition of what constitutes a credible threat. I'm sure any activist would say that continued police brutality against minorities, widespread and increasing hate crimes, etc. represent a credible threat to affected populations.

We can argue about how genuine / common these threats really are, but at the end of the day I think it's fair to say at the absolute minimum that activists genuinely believe they are threats.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by Veelox on Sunday June 06, 2021 @08:11AM (#27412602)
Quick question, without checking the numbers, about how many black people do you think were killed by police last year and how many of them were unarmed? I'm interested in knowing what you think the numbers are in reference to them possibly being a credible threat.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by throwaway894345 on Saturday June 05, 2021 @07:02AM (#27403931)
While those things are bad, I think we can agree that there is a difference between global thermonuclear warfare and police brutality and hate crimes. At the very least, GTNW is a literal existential threat for every person, while brutality and hate have been pretty normal in human history and liberalism is the antidote (indeed, the rich American liberal tradition is what makes hate and brutality seem so shocking)—giving up liberalism in the name of combatting hate is inappropriate, and IMO very likely the thing which drives up hate crimes in the first place (left wing behavior pushes many people to the right and sets up illiberal precedents for them to follow).
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by weswpg on Saturday June 05, 2021 @03:46PM (#27407975)
The Red Scare began in the 1920s, long before nuclear weapons were invented, so the threat of nuclear war was not the primary determinant factor characterizing that situation
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by trasz on Saturday June 05, 2021 @10:39AM (#27405429)
Of course - there was never a real danger of a global thermonuclear war. Police brutality, on the other hand, is real.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by perl4ever on Sunday June 06, 2021 @02:08AM (#27411141)
>there was never a real danger of a global thermonuclear war

This seems like an odd thing to say. Is it meant as sarcasm?

Everyone has heard of the Cuban Missile Crisis, so I won't say anything about that.

But have you heard of the Sino-Soviet crisis of 1969? Allegedly (I'm neither a historian nor any other kind of authority on it) the USSR was going to launch nuclear missiles at China during a border dispute, and asked the Nixon administration to remain neutral.

Instead, Kissinger replied that the US would nuke hundreds of Russian cities in response.

This story appears to be reflective of the official Chinese Communist Party historical account.

https://www.scmp.com/article/714064/nixon-intervention-saved...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by trasz on Sunday June 06, 2021 @05:07AM (#27411812)
What I’ve really meant is: there was never a real danger of a global thermonuclear war, unless started by US. The example above demonstrates this nicely.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by perl4ever on Sunday June 06, 2021 @09:46PM (#27418124)
The example above is a counterexample, where the USSR threatened to initiate.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by trasz on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:59AM (#27420772)
Not from the description above - it says USSR wanted to use nukes in a local conflict; it's the US that threatened to make it global.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by perl4ever on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:56PM (#27430505)
It doesn't say anything about the entire globe, just Russia.

You may be mistakenly equating nuking of hundreds of cities with planetary destruction.

There were hundreds of atmospheric nuclear weapon tests during the cold war. If that had been the end of the world, we wouldn't be talking about it.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by throwaway894345 on Saturday June 05, 2021 @02:34PM (#27407489)
That’s hindsight.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by SV_BubbleTime on Saturday June 05, 2021 @11:33AM (#27405876)
You mean the first red scare or the one we had for the last four years because it “hurt Trump” to make all manner of connections to Russia?
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by tomnipotent on Saturday June 05, 2021 @02:35AM (#27402751)
Eric Raymond and Wendy McElroy are not thought leaders I'd turn to, and naming something doesn't make it true or turn it into an effective rhetorical device.

There's a wide spectrum of human behavior and responses to these issues, and this takes a tiny sliver of that and tries to pain the rest with the same broad stroke.

> Examples?

In just the last few decades? We have immigration, women's propriety and reproductive rights, civil rights, and the LGBT movement to name a few. The outrage comes mostly from one side, which has their own arsenal of rhetorical devices to paint opposition as morally bankrupt reprobates. Support same-sex marriage? Closeted gay or un-Christian heathen, destroyer of families. Won't pledge allegiance to the flag? Must be a commie. Women deserve equal pay? What a beta simp.

Both sides do and say stupid shit in their own stupid ways.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by CRConrad on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:31AM (#27412394)
> Both sides do and say stupid shit in their own stupid ways.

The sad and hilarious thing is that both sides are often wrong in what they advocate, but often right in their criticism of the other side. It's probably easier to recognise bullshit in others (than in oneself and) than to get stuff right oneself.

Since the "Kafka trap" thing isn't something he advocates but something he criticizes his opponents for using, I'd start from the assumption that it's among the (increasingly rare) things ESR is right on.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by tomnipotent on Sunday June 06, 2021 @07:16PM (#27417253)
People are great at giving advice to others, while failing to do the same for themselves.

> things ESR is right on

Except he's not. The entire existence of "kafkatrap" is to paint an enemy and argument that doesn't exist, taking some random train of thought to it's logical extreme. Considering his bigoted comments on women, Islam, and African American's, I have very little confidence that he's coming from a good place.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by nandhinianand on Saturday June 05, 2021 @06:33AM (#27403795)
Exactly... wanted to say this... I don't subscribe to the left vs right dichotomy to begin with, but "kafkatrapping" is a tactic used by both sides. When I was reading the link, I was reminded of a ex-colleague, who thought my transition was wrong because it is pandering to the inherent evil in me. Ah...
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by toyg on Saturday June 05, 2021 @05:09AM (#27403449)
Yeah. Tbh it reminds me very much of the classic LBJ quote "let's make him deny it".
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by vmception on Saturday June 05, 2021 @12:23AM (#27402172)
Agreed and I dislike how these conversations just embolden people to invite us into their right wing filter bubble after they see our dissatisfaction with left wing filter bubbles

For now I’m satisfied with the reversion to the mean of not talking politics at work

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by throwaway894345 on Saturday June 05, 2021 @05:12AM (#27403471)
I kind of agree with this—one of my main criticisms of left-wing ideology is that it so closely resembles right-wing ideology, and it certainly seems to push a lot of people toward the right wing. In particular the intense left-wing pressure to suppress any frank, unscripted conversations about race leaves a lot of “ideologically vulnerable” people with nowhere to turn with respect to their questions than the welcoming embrace of right wing folks, which unsurprisingly swells their ranks. All of this intense left-wing bad behavior similarly gives right wing folks a sense of moral license to behave badly as well (for just one example, think of how the media and other prominent voices profusely excused and justified BLM riots all summer long and the precedent that probably set for the 1/6 riot).

“Reversion to the mean” is probably a good thing insofar as it means “moderating ourselves”.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by rurban on Saturday June 05, 2021 @06:11AM (#27403713)
Exactly. I identify as strict antifascist and leftist, but cannot understand why the extremist social justice warriors are identified as leftist. Eg there was this citation by them

> creates a “not safe work environment.”

On the contrary, calling for censorship and heated nonscientific, political discussion on the workplace, esp. against conservatives, creates a non safe work environment. It also cripples science.

Formerly they were called out as religious zealots, not leftists.