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Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by MPSimmons on Sunday May 30, 2021 @03:25PM (#27335888)
FYI, a couple of things to keep in mind:

1. This is a letter to the editor, and is not peer-reviewed[1]

2. This author does not have what some would consider a sterling history of submitted papers[2]

[1] - Difference between Letters and Letters to the Editor: https://pubs.acs.org/page/amclct/about.html

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ariel_Fernandez&o...

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by bigpumpkin on Sunday May 30, 2021 @09:05PM (#27338752)
Correct me if I'm wrong. RaTG13's genome was published in 2020 after the pandemic started by Shi and the Wuhan Institute of technology.

Doesn't seem likely they'll voluntarily publish a paper on a virus they used as the backbone to manufacture SARS-CoV-2...

Even if it was a lab leak, it's unlikely RaTG13 was the progenitor.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by ncmncm on Sunday May 30, 2021 @09:21PM (#27338882)
We don't know if there ever was a wild RaTG13. If WIV is under suspicion, anything WIV said about RaTG13 is equally suspect. If it is faked, one might be surprised they did not fake it in a way less likely to encourage suspicion.

Nobody seriously suspects WIV engineered the SARS-CoV2 to deliberately cause a pandemic, but negligently letting it escape is itself obviously worth covering up. Whether that happened or not, it is their misfortune that it doesn't look more like a natural chimera.

I have assumed early insistence that it was natural was considered necessary to get any possibility of cooperation from the Chinese gov't. Now that they have become uncooperative, there is no more reason to maintain the fiction.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by nomoreplease on Sunday May 30, 2021 @10:56PM (#27339543)
> Shi and the Wuhan Institute of technology. Doesn't seem likely they'll voluntarily

Shi and WIT are not related to WIV, are they? This could be independent and without explicit consent of WIV?

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by potiuper on Monday May 31, 2021 @12:48AM (#27340261)
Shi directs the Center for Emerging Infectious Diseases at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi_Zhengli

The original article, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_misinformation comments, and "urban" food security arguments, which rate near the necessity of cannibalism, distract from continuing to ban the most likely sources of zoonotic diseases and wildlife smuggling that are the wet markets.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by ed25519FUUU on Sunday May 30, 2021 @03:29PM (#27335913)
I appreciate your skepticism. Unfortunately “skepticism” is basically the only credence given to the lab leak theory for the last year. Was the public intentionally mislead via the MSM? Personally I’m ready to entertain the theory because I no longer trust the institutional word.
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by MPSimmons on Sunday May 30, 2021 @03:32PM (#27335938)
I am not a biologist and am not qualified to comment on the content whatsoever. I was just doing background research on the article I was reading and the author of the paper, and wanted to bring to light what I found.
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by ed25519FUUU on Monday May 31, 2021 @11:58AM (#27345357)
That's a shame. Dams are extremely useful even if ecologicaly damaging. They provide clean and carbon free power generation and freshwater for farms and irrigation that would otherwise run out to the sea.

Hopefully we can invest in more research to reduce and remove the ecological burden of dams.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by greenwich26 on Sunday May 30, 2021 @03:37PM (#27335986)
According to Google Scholar, he has dozens of papers, 10000 citations, and an h-index of 37. What do you have?

And if you follow through, at least a couple of the four retractions mentioned on Wikipedia appear to be nothing but some acknowledgment/funding related trivia.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by tptacek on Sunday May 30, 2021 @03:40PM (#27335999)
It doesn't matter what a commenter on HN has. A rare ironic case where the original comment isn't ad-hominem, but the dinging rebuttal is.
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by parineum on Sunday May 30, 2021 @04:21PM (#27336377)
> This author does not have what some would consider a sterling history of submitted papers

This is ad hominem. The link provided only supports the accusation with previous accusations.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by tptacek on Sunday May 30, 2021 @05:03PM (#27336740)
No, it’s not. In a discussion about the credibility of an academic researcher, their track record is entirely relevant. The same isn’t true of an HN comment.
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by chmod600 on Sunday May 30, 2021 @09:05PM (#27338756)
"Valid ad hominem arguments occur in informal logic, where the person making the argument relies on arguments from authority such as testimony, expertise..."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

It appears that the original comment was valid ad hominem, but still ad hominem.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by parineum on Monday May 31, 2021 @11:14PM (#27350388)
Any ad hominem cannot inform you about the quality of an argument. It _can_ inform you that you should look at an argument critically but, even in the "valid" form, it doesn't address the argument.
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by deugo on Sunday May 30, 2021 @05:13PM (#27336861)
Slight of hand. We were not discussing the credibility of an academic researcher, we were to discuss the contents and logical merit of their submission.

Both were ad-hominem. The first one also suffers from a pompous bias: What does it even matter if the submission is not peer-reviewed? It could have been posted on a blog! It is dropping little seeds of doubt, to weaken and attack something you don't want to attack directly:

"A warning to everyone that the linked website does not adhere to Wikipedia guidelines for being a credible source."

Expect better. If you demand peer-review, then review the contents as a peer! You have the opportunity to get what you want, instead of needlessly attacking a fellow scientist' credibility.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by h0l0cube on Sunday May 30, 2021 @09:47PM (#27339071)
> Both were ad-hominem

Surely a distinction can be made between attacking someone's character and attacking their claim to authority. Within every scientific paper there's an implicit claim to authority and here the track record has weight alongside whatever qualifications they may have.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by tptacek on Monday May 31, 2021 @12:30AM (#27340145)
It's "sleight", from the middle English for "skill", not "slight".
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by greenwich26 on Sunday May 30, 2021 @05:06PM (#27336773)
...what? Attacking the past of the person making an argument, rather than his argument itself, is the textbook example of ad hominem.
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by middleclick on Sunday May 30, 2021 @03:47PM (#27336070)
Wait, does this mean that I am not allowed to criticize someone just because I ... don't have their skills? That doesn't make any sense.

This paper is not peer-reviewed. It should end there.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by greenwich26 on Sunday May 30, 2021 @05:11PM (#27336835)
No. I'm just not convinced at all by his comment about the author's publication history.

>This paper is not peer-reviewed. It should end there.

So you think scientists aren't allowed to communicate with one another and the public except through peer reviewed articles? 'Tis absurd. Anyway, peer review means very little nowadays. I publish 3-5 papers per year in top journals in my field, and many of the referee reports I see are hilariously insignificant, effortless, and/or just totally off the point.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by darkerside on Sunday May 30, 2021 @09:45PM (#27339055)
> This paper is not peer-reviewed. It should begin there.

FTFY

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by Turing_Machine on Sunday May 30, 2021 @03:36PM (#27335978)
> This is a letter to the editor, and is not peer-reviewed

True enough.

On the other hand, they did publish it, which I'm positive they don't do with letters they believe are pure crackpottery, or otherwise without merit (of which I'm sure they get their share).

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Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by Turing_Machine on Sunday May 30, 2021 @09:34PM (#27338971)
Right. He directly violates the HN rules, and I get modded down.

He posted a dismissive snark about my (substantive) comment, and I replied in kind.

Edit: For the record, I've read plenty of papers in both Nature and Science, so his claim that I haven't is objectively incorrect.

My response stands: he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by skwb on Sunday May 30, 2021 @07:39PM (#27338125)
FWIW I have seen lots of trash in Nature and Science.
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by Turing_Machine on Sunday May 30, 2021 @09:33PM (#27338964)
You haven't seen outright conspiracy theories, though.
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by late2part on Sunday May 30, 2021 @03:32PM (#27335943)
Nonetheless:

1. Fauci runs funding for gain of function research 2. Attributing COVID-19 to gain of function research hurts future gain of function research 3. Cui bono

Some context: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3484390/

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by geofft on Sunday May 30, 2021 @03:56PM (#27336165)
The link you provide as context contradicts 1, if I'm reading it right? It says that Fauci does not want to fund this research.

(Maybe I'm misunderstanding the posited conspiracy and the idea is that if the NIH doesn't fund something, Fauci pockets the unspent money?)

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by potiuper on Sunday May 30, 2021 @05:13PM (#27336850)
The link (2012) does not contradict 1 and does not say that Fauci does not want to fund "this" [SARS] research.
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by middleclick on Sunday May 30, 2021 @03:52PM (#27336135)
> Fauci runs funding for gain of function research

Fauci has denied multiple times that they funded gain of function research. Please cite your sources.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by late2part on Sunday May 30, 2021 @05:52PM (#27337217)
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by alien_ on Sunday May 30, 2021 @05:02PM (#27336717)
There's this other article https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-peop... which among other things explains that gain of function is technically defined as modifying existing human viruses to make them more dangerous.

The SARS2 quite likely isn't based on an existing human virus but on a bat coronavirus.

The NIH has been apparently funding modifying bat coronaviruses in Wuhan with minimal guardrails as to be able to infect humanized lab mice but that's not gain of function as per that definition.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by late2part on Sunday May 30, 2021 @05:53PM (#27337224)
Well, despite your technical definition, it would seem it gained function.
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by ncmncm on Sunday May 30, 2021 @09:38PM (#27338997)
It gained function without involving any of what are formally considered gain-of-function operations. So, Fauci could fund it, and also truthfully testify under oath that he didn't fund anything that, by the definition, would count as GoF work. That a virus did gain function, by operations not covered by the definition, is a separate problem: The definition should be widened enough to cover what really happened.
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by potiuper on Sunday May 30, 2021 @04:58PM (#27336673)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524054/

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS

This work was supported by NIH grants R01AI089728; (to F.L.) and R01AI110700 (to R.S.B. and F.L.).

"To evaluate the potential genetic changes required for HKU4 to infect human cells, we reengineered HKU4 spike, aiming to build its capacity to mediate viral entry into human cells."

Fauci has been director of NIAID since 1984, which is excessive.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by middleclick on Sunday May 30, 2021 @05:12PM (#27336836)
Fauci has categorically denied on record that they don't fund gain of function research. I am not qualified enough to comment if the re-engineering mentioned here is the same.

I trust Fauci to not lie in a public hearing and to know what he is saying.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by late2part on Sunday May 30, 2021 @05:55PM (#27337239)
Like when he said we shouldn’t use masks?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/...

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by randcraw on Sunday May 30, 2021 @09:32PM (#27338959)
Being wrong is not at issue, especially when the source reverses their position as better info arises. What's at issue is malevolent intent — knowingly spreading falsehoods. I'm aware of no credible basis for believing the latter about Fauci.
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by thu2111 on Sunday May 30, 2021 @04:19PM (#27336368)
It seems that the most common response to arguments in favour of a lab leak is always to attack the messenger. First "It's Trump so don't listen to him", then "Nicholas Wade is a racist so don't read him" and now "Ariel Fernandez is only writing a letter and someone anonymously complained about one of his papers once but they were never told what the complaint was actually about and the generic expressions of concerns never went anywhere". That's weak sauce.

I think most of us don't care who he is, only whether what they say is true. The claims in this article aren't actually new anyway, it was all covered in Wade's article already. So if it's wrong, let's hear why. That would certainly be interesting.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by tzs on Sunday May 30, 2021 @07:27PM (#27338015)
> First "It's Trump so don't listen to him".

People also didn't listen to him about wind turbines causing cancer. Or about vaccines causing autism. Or about global warming being a hoax by the Chinese to harm US manufacturing. Or about injecting disinfectants to fight COVID.

There was not (and still isn't) any indication that he had any more evidence to back up his COVID origin claims than he had for any of those other claims. All you can safely conclude is that Trump saw a YouTube video or a website or TV commentator that claimed that, and uncritically accepted it.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by deugo on Sunday May 30, 2021 @11:29PM (#27339737)
> People also didn't listen to him about wind turbines causing cancer.

Asked why he was not in favor of wind mills, Trump answered once, that "they say" it can cause cancer. "They say" is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine_syndrome

> Or about vaccines causing autism

Trump sues outlets for speculating one of his sons has autism. "Many such cases" may hit close to home here. And a cute test: how much are you willing to bet (hard $) to back this a-causality? Didn't the general courts had to make a special vaccine court to deal with many such (autism) claims? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vaccine_Injury_Compen...

> Or about global warming being a hoax by the Chinese to harm US manufacturing.

Global warming is used by the Chinese, in the sense that they completely ignore it, while fostering climate change activism in Western countries, so to reduce their energy footprint from within, and gain unfair advantage.

> All you can safely conclude is that Trump saw a YouTube video or a website or TV commentator that claimed that, and uncritically accepted it.

Trump was clearly not the best to give that conference. He was leaning towards his science advisors, to fill in the gaps. They told Trump about potential methods using UV-rays or disinfectants.

I too would tell the president if I knew about advances in research such as https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8346001/ (Inactivation of respiratory syncytial virus by detergents and disinfectants, 1993), but still hope that he does not run with it and shoots it from the hip. Maybe that was too much to hope for. But don't let people 20 years later remember the lie that "Trump said to inject people with bleach to cure COVID". There is plenty of other embarassing true stuff.

Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by the-dude on Sunday May 30, 2021 @07:48PM (#27338193)
Could you post the source for the injection claim? It seems to me you uncritically accepted some YT video, website or TV commentator.
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by vannizhang on Sunday May 30, 2021 @08:55PM (#27338666)
Re:Molecular biology clues portray SARS-CoV-2 as a lab manip... by bellyfullofbac on Sunday May 30, 2021 @04:46PM (#27336579)
DDGing his name and institute gets me here: http://www.arielfernandez.net/daruma-institute2.html

Yeah, I can't tell if the biology paper is credible or not, but I smell crap when reading that institute's program. I think whether Covid is lab-engineered or natural doesn't affect me that drastically, the reality has been what this last year and more has been. My interest in the virus' origin is mainly in the popcorn-worthy political drama.

But after reading that institute blurb I'll just set aside the popcorn because this work doesn't seem to be the smoking gun that will set off popcorn-worthy political consequences. Unless someone else who I judge more credible endorses that letter to the editor...