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Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by onion2k on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:13PM (#27298951)
Today's new expensive housing will indirectly create more cheap housing in the pre-existing housing stock, by pulling demand out of the market.

Only if people actually live in those houses, and they're bought by people living in the cheaper houses right now who then move up in to the new housing stock.

If people buy the new houses as investments and leave them empty most of the year then it has no impact on the rest of the housing market, or if people from outside buy them and move to the city then it just increases the population of the city with no effect on the lower social strata. This is precisely what happens in places like London. There's a boom in house building but it's often apartments bought by foreign investors (allegedly for money laundering... ).

Directly building more social housing would have a far greater impact than trying to affect cheap housing stock by 'trickle down' methods.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by spfzero on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:32PM (#27299085)
Wow, buying a house and leaving it vacant most of the year doesn't seem like a very good investment. In my experience when people I've known bought an investment property the number one thing on their minds was occupancy, and if they thought it would lie vacant for more than a month or two, they wouldn't buy it.

I do see your point about foreign investors though, they will view the house as a bank account, one that won't lose money, and will probably appreciate, and is safe from the corruption (or corruption investigations) of their home country. And they have money they need to put somewhere, so why not there?

But even they would probably prefer someone to be living in it and paying them in the meantime, because that improves the return by a lot, and doesn't put the principal at risk.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by Klinky on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:54PM (#27299212)
Housing prices in my area have literally doubled in the last 5~ years. Sitting on a house doesn't look so bad with those returns. At the same time flipping is also a housing investment method that inflates prices while often diluting the quality of the housing market, as it's often not done properly.

Let's also not forget the housing crisis saw a lot of money pouring into bad investments. Assuming people only make wise investments is naive. The market is crazy right now with people paying over asking and waiving inspections. A lot of people are going to ride that train over the cliff.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:56PM (#27299225)
> Sitting on a house doesn't look so bad with those returns

Those returns are underwritten by voters rejecting new housing. If that political landscape changes, the incentives for landholders evolve.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by Klinky on Thursday May 27, 2021 @12:04AM (#27299279)
I dunno, I do see "luxury" apartments being built rather often around here, but starting at $2K/mn for a 1 bedroom isn't really affordable.

Political NIMBYism probably does play some part along with the pandemic, but again, that doesn't mean these investors are paying attention to that. There is a gold rush on at the moment.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by ajmurmann on Thursday May 27, 2021 @12:30AM (#27299420)
People who move into these more expensive units leave other, less-luxury units though that now someone else can move into. Of course, as someone else pointed out, there is actually pent up demand outside of major cities as well by people wanting to move to the city. But still our only realistic, long term solution out of this mess that 40 years of insufficient construction had gotten us into is unprecedented construction. Upzone and remove barriers to get permits.
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by imtringued on Thursday May 27, 2021 @07:24AM (#27301659)
Someone is willing to pay that much, they will pay that much for an old apartment if they must.
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by treeman79 on Thursday May 27, 2021 @12:24AM (#27299377)
That, and inflation showing up in certain areas.
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by dnautics on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:37PM (#27299115)
If it's not occupied isn't it losing money at least by bleeding to property taxes?
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by onion2k on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:43PM (#27299155)
Yes, but property values in London are increasing at a rate that more than pays for that (many times over actually).
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by maffydub on Thursday May 27, 2021 @12:23AM (#27299373)
Do you have any data on that?

Currently living in zone 2 north-east London and house prices have seemed pretty flat for the last couple of years. Flats have had a surge due to current stamp duty holiday... and prices outside London seem to have increased a lot with people anticipating a permanent move to remote/hybrid working.

Taxes on empty properties aren't high, but you still need to consider maintenance... and there's an opportunity cost of leaving a house empty rather than renting it out.

Just interested in your data - thanks!

Update: found https://www.actiononemptyhomes.org/pretty-vacant in one of your sibling posts - was that what you were referring to? I just read it (on my phone, so might have missed it), but didn't see any numbers for investment returns here... and there was a fairly-extensive section talking about London property being used for money-laundering instead - is that what you're referring to?

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by simfree on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:54PM (#27299219)
Same in Seattle, my block has a 2017 constructed home that has never had occupants, owned by a non-resident from China. He owns at least a few other empty new homes in the inner suburbs as well.

About once every 2 weeks his son pops by to make sure the house has not burned down or had a pipe burst.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by iancmceachern on Thursday May 27, 2021 @01:29AM (#27299715)
Can I rent one of his houses?
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by __app_dev__ on Thursday May 27, 2021 @01:47PM (#27305917)
In CA (at least Los Angeles) there are some tax laws in place that allow a home owner to make more in tax breaks by not renting a house or building vs renting it out.

I don’t know the details as I'm a renter but from speaking with a few Realtors they mentioned the companies the worked at did this.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by BurningFrog on Thursday May 27, 2021 @12:08AM (#27299300)
I'm fascinated by how widespread this weird idea is.

Even if we buy the exotic premise that investors would buy houses and leave them empty - generating zero rental income for these greed driven people - as an investment, we still have to explain why they would only do this with new housing stock.

Why can't you do the same trick with existing housing?

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by vxNsr on Thursday May 27, 2021 @12:40AM (#27299483)
I’ve heard of it too, apparently foreign money (mostly China) needs a legit way to pull the money out of their country and real estate is a good way to do it that doesn’t alarm regulators. Can’t say why it doesn’t make sense to rent it out. But I do know that Vancouver passed laws to limit this type of purchase.
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by mactrey on Thursday May 27, 2021 @02:04AM (#27299881)
Did Vancouver pass limits on foreign purchases because that was the underlying reason for the high cost of housing, or did they pass limits because that was easier than actually building new housing?
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by imtringued on Thursday May 27, 2021 @07:25AM (#27301667)
Building housing must be stopped at all costs.
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by andy_jensen on Thursday May 27, 2021 @01:31AM (#27299723)
>Even if we buy the exotic premise that investors would buy houses and leave them empty - generating zero rental income for these greed driven people - as an investment, we still have to explain why they would only do this with new housing stock.

Where I live the housing prices are expected to go up roughly 15% this year. So someone buying a house for 600k can expect to sell it for 690k making 90k. That is 7500 USD a month. If you wanted to make that much money from rent you would have to squeeze 4 or 5 tenants into the property. It is simply not worth the hassle trying to rent buildings out when house prices go up at such a high rate

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by jjav on Thursday May 27, 2021 @04:12PM (#27307716)
> If you wanted to make that much money from rent

It's not either/or, which is why I'd assume the parent poster called it weird. That investor could make the appreciation and of top of it could make the rental income. So it is weird, from their perspective, to leave it empty. If they're flipping real estate for profit (as opposed to buying a home to live) why reject the extra income.

Also, selling a rental property with a solid history of rental income tends to be better than one with a history of sitting empty. Although that probably doesn't apply to mansions.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by BurningFrog on Thursday May 27, 2021 @09:45AM (#27303012)
My point is you can do both.

Make $7500/month from house value increase, and also, say, $4k from rent.

This increases the resale value since the house is generating income to the buyer.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by andy_jensen on Thursday May 27, 2021 @01:33PM (#27305743)
Homeless people of people with low income cannot afford $4k rent. Also I find it preposterous that people can make $7.5k/month in the first place from just house value increase. At the rate at which housing get more and more expensive we will soon reach a point where new home owners will never be able to fully pay a mortgage back
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by throwaway316943 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:36PM (#27299103)
Luxury second homes should simply be taxed at a high rate, it’s one of the least defensible indulgences so with enough of a campaign it could happen. Ditto for speculative foreign buyers, this is already happening in some cities that have been hard hit by such “investments”.
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by stale2002 on Thursday May 27, 2021 @12:31AM (#27299426)
> If people buy the new houses as investments and leave them empty most of the year

Fortunately, this is already a metric that is tracked, called the vacancy rate. And what we see is, that in in-demand cities, that have high rents, the vacancy rate is pretty low.

So, if the vacancy rate is 5%, that means that if you build 100 houses, then 95 of them are going to be lived in. Yes, it sucks that those other 5 houses are not lived in, but those extra 95 houses, in our example, are still a good thing.

> This is precisely what happens in places like London

It is really not. A quick google search shows that the vacancy rate is as low as any other major in-demand city.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by onion2k on Thursday May 27, 2021 @03:08AM (#27300248)
A quick Google will also show that the vacancy rate for high end property is higher, and that builders are building more high end property, so logically there is less useful housing stock being added than the overall vacancy rate would imply.
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by whoknowswhat11 on Thursday May 27, 2021 @12:40AM (#27299479)
One factor in vacancy rates at least in SF / NY - rent control. You really CANNOT rent to someone without a big risk - so if you have an elderly parent who might want to move in in the future, you have kids who might want a place - and are wealthy - you really need to keep place empty.

So yes, the rich do leave I think more places empty in some places because they can afford to and because the economic calculation is not simple. If you rent and want to end the rental later you end up in a bad spot.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by stale2002 on Thursday May 27, 2021 @12:56AM (#27299558)
> more places empty in some places

Ok, this is a nice story that one could make up. But once again, my point is that vacancy rate is something that is already tracked.

In San Francisco, the vacancy rate is about 3.5%.

So, in other words, regardless of whatever story you are making up about parents, or rent control or whatever, the actual data shows, that the vacancy rate is very low, and therefore not much of a problem.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by whoknowswhat11 on Thursday May 27, 2021 @01:15AM (#27299637)
I'm not disagreeing at all. But I know of enough unusual vacancies in SF among the rich that it strikes me as a small corner factor. In another city (smaller, parents live there) EVERYONE rents when they are not in their space. I mean, even just for summer if traveling. But when you come back, the tenant must leave (and does).

I know someone who sublet an extra room to someone, a year later her wonderful lease was destroyed, landlord sued her and the women never paid a dime, could not be evicted, claimed she felt unsafe and got a restraining order against the person actually paying rent etc so they ended paying rent on two places, one to live in and one for the women.

I mean - this stuff does turn you off renting a small bit.

That said, supply is REDICULOUSLY constrained around here, red tape is nuts, minimum requirements crazy, affordability payments high etc. So yeah, no question that there is artificial scarcity.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by circlefavshape on Thursday May 27, 2021 @05:04AM (#27300780)
The vacancy rate in Dublin (in Ireland) is 1.6%, but I was there 2 weeks ago and there are so many empty buildings - some of them empty at least since I lived there back in the 90s/00s. I'm not sure that vacancy rate reflects the reality of a city's unproductive building stock
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by imtringued on Thursday May 27, 2021 @07:22AM (#27301639)
When people buy housing and leave it empty, they are buying the land, the house is a bonus. People never buy housing as an investment unless they use it to reduce the cost of living (pretty much never) or rent it out (happens a lot). Buying land works fine because of rent seeking.
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by tylerhou on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:23PM (#27299031)
What concrete data do you have to suggest that luxury homes aren't being occupied at significantly higher rates than general housing stock?
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by tylerhou on Thursday May 27, 2021 @01:11AM (#27299621)
None of the articles support a narrative that there is an epidemic of vacancies among high-end housing.

Vancouver: The article claims that there is ~5% vacancy rate. This is actually below the normal rate for vacancies in the US. Condos have a higher vacancy rate, but the article offers a reasonable explanation.

Manhattan: Ultra-luxury home vacancies aren't the same as luxury apartment buildings. Most people are not buying $5-$10 million condos. And even if the buildings are unsold, they aren't necessarily unoccupied.

Seattle: Again focuses on "foreign investors" and unsold apartments. No concrete data on how many those apartments are actually empty.

Melbourne: > Prosper Australia project director Karl Fitzgerald said, based on the water data, Melbourne's actual vacancy rate was closer to 7 per cent.

7% is on the high-end of vacancy rates, but if you reduced that down to 5% then the effect on prices would still be low.

Boston: No data on vacancy rates. Again, sale != occupancy. There are plenty of property management companies that build out luxury apartment buildings and directly rent to people.

The real issue is lack of housing, which can be fixed by letting developers build more housing, including high-end housing.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by sp332 on Thursday May 27, 2021 @01:33AM (#27299733)
Vancouver: "condominiums that are owned and not available for rent had a whopping 12.5 per cent vacancy rate"

The Manhattan article links to https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/10/realestate/new-york-decad... which says "Nearly half of new condo units in Manhattan that came to market after 2015... remain unsold, according to a December analysis of both closed sales and contracts" and "7,050 new condo units available for sale in Manhattan in January [2020]"

Melbourne: "Docklands... 17 per cent consuming no water in 2013" and "12.4 per cent of Cardinia and Clyde homes reported no water use."

Boston: "12 of Boston’s newest and biggest luxury developments could remain largely empty despite having sold most of their available condo units to buyers."

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by tylerhou on Thursday May 27, 2021 @03:24AM (#27300323)
Vancouver: "City housing planner Matthew Bourke said there doesn't appear to be a correlation between empty homes and housing prices, given that the vacancy rate remained flat while prices skyrocketed.... Bourke told council that about 70 per cent of single-family homes marked as vacant in 2014 were found to be waiting for a renovation permit." 12.5 * 0.7 = 3.75% (this can't be directly compared to other vacancy numbers, though).

Manhattan: Unsold != unoccupied.

Melbourne: Now we're cherrypicking districts that have less than 15,000 residents total in a city of 5 million in one specific year? This is essentially p-hacking to support a non-existent narrative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinia,_Victoria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clyde,_Victoria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docklands,_Victoria

Boston: "could remain largely empty." This is speculation. Where is the data?

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by sp332 on Thursday May 27, 2021 @10:38AM (#27303683)
"Came to market" clearly means they were not renting directly.
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by epistasis on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:55PM (#27299223)
That seems like solid evidence that vacancy is not the problem in the least...
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by onion2k on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:40PM (#27299130)
https://www.actiononemptyhomes.org/pretty-vacant

"Wealth investment leaves an estimated 125,000 homes in London without anyone living in them."

There are 268,385 empty homes in England according to the government (people get a tax break in most parts of England if they own a property that is unoccupied and unfurnished so its quite easy to track empty homes), and half of them are luxury houses in London.

I'm not saying that's definitely the case everywhere, but I am saying it's worth considering.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by tylerhou on Thursday May 27, 2021 @03:56AM (#27300464)
The actual report says that there are 125,000 homes in London without permanent residents. Those homes aren't unoccupied; they're often used for AirBnB or temporary rentals. That's not a vacancy. In reality, only a fifth of those homes are empty most of the time.

Also, the report doesn't tell us how many non-vacant homes there are in their survey area, so we have to guess. London reportedly has 3.59 million dwellings, so 25,000 vacant homes would only represent 0.7% of homes being vacant. Even if you use the higher 125,000 number, that's still only 3.5% of all homes. That's a fairly low vacancy rate, and about right for a city.

Even after the pandemic, housing officials report a 3.4% vacancy rate, which is the highest in eight years. https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/london-apartment-vacancy.... Before that, it was only at 1.8%. That's extremely low.

You can tax vacant homes, but in general, those taxes have a very small effect on housing prices. It's far, far more effective to allow people to build more housing, including luxury housing.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by maddyboo on Thursday May 27, 2021 @12:16AM (#27299338)
What is the rationale for giving such a tax break? That seems ridiculous.
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by onion2k on Thursday May 27, 2021 @03:06AM (#27300238)
The current UK government is full of people who believe rich people keeping their money is how you stimulate the economy in to growth. It's not a completely unreasonable position according to economic theory but there are plenty of reasons to disagree with it.
Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by imtringued on Thursday May 27, 2021 @07:32AM (#27301728)
If your economy cannot produce all the products consumers consume then you need to encourage saving.

If the economy cannot consume all the products the suppliers produce you need to encourage consumption.

If you perfectly hit the balance (unlikely but in theory possible) then you need to do... nothing, neither savings nor consumption increases.

It depends on what your economy needs.

Re:LA pays $2600 per homeless tent, per month by alisonkisk on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:20PM (#27299003)
Why wouldn't "social housing" get gentrified?