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Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by lovich on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @06:25PM (#27296876)
It’s just a general breakdown of the rule of law and trust all over our society. When everyone around you is breaking the rules and receiving no repercussions, then following the rules yourself is equivalent to choosing to lose.

We used to have strong institutions that were supposed to help push groups into not choosing the bad corner of the prisoners dilemma, but they all seemed to have degraded. I suppose they could have always been like this and the curtain has just been removed, but I’d argue that the perception that following the rules was the best personal choice is almost as valuable as it being true

Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by toomim on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @06:36PM (#27297000)
Yes. Here are some stats on the breakdown of trust in society: https://medium.com/@slowerdawn/the-decline-of-trust-in-the-u...

This animated gif makes it clear: https://invisible.college/reputation/declining-trust.gif

Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by theteapot on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @07:16PM (#27297322)
Lack of trust is a symptom not the cause. I hate it when I hear politicians and the like bemoan a "lack of trust". I don't want to trust you! I want to hold you to account!
Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by BeFlatXIII on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @08:35PM (#27297951)
Deliberately conflating cause & effect is a classic politician’s move. It doesn’t even have to be a reversal of the two: it’s probably even more frequent when they cite one part of a positive feedback loop as the unambiguous cause and the other as the clear effect.

The classic example of the later are the politicians who rant “if only these people would get married and stay married, they wouldn’t be so poor” and neglect to consider that impoverished communities create the conditions for rampant single motherhood. The desire to raise children does not magically vanish merely because there are exactly zero worthwhile men in your community that aren’t your father’s age.

Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by toomim on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @07:30PM (#27297468)
Actually trust is both a symptom and a cause. The causality goes both ways.

(1) If you lose trust in someone, you'll be less likely to try to find truth in their statements. Finding truth in someone's statements requires time and attention, and we'll invest that attention in people we trust.

(2) If you find falsehoods in their statements, you will lose trust in them.

Overall in Psychology, trust is a primary indicator of a relationship, marriage, partnership, or organization succeeding or falling apart. It's both a symptom and a cause of all other factors.

Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by slx26 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @06:41PM (#27297045)
Can be trusted with what? Given how complicated life is, I'm actually impressed with how morally people behaves. In that sense, I trust that most people are doing what they can, and they are trying to do no harm to others. But that doesn't mean I trust people to be very competent anyway. Trust what.
Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by aaron-santos on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @06:56PM (#27297187)
Do you disagree with either the specific operationalization of trust in the article or even the abstract concept of operationalization of trust in general?
Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @07:45PM (#27297589)
I think he is just saying that trusting someone with your walley and trusting someome with your life are different benchmarks
Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by visualradio on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @08:15PM (#27297803)
In republics without absolute rulers, individuals trust each other to maintain the state out of a sense of civic duty, and not to declare themselves king.

This trust is greatly eroded by calls to eliminate direct taxes on land holders. In America the local property tax is the most important thing holding society together. It provides residents with assurances that regardless of how corrupt the public process for distributing legal tender becomes, that the richest cannot simply buy the entire country and turn the continent into a private estate which their descendants will inherit in perpetuity without paying enormous taxes to everyone else.

When James Madison organized the assessment of property taxes at the national level during his presidency it resulted in the 'Era of Good Feelings' and a relative low point of political polarization. In contrast when state governments introduced sales taxes for the first time to reduce property taxes it prolonged the Great Depression, and when NYC gave the largest property tax abatements in the country to Donald Trump it lead to the Trump presidency which increased political polarization.

Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by PragmaticPulp on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @07:57PM (#27297662)
> It’s just a general breakdown of the rule of law and trust all over our society. When everyone around you is breaking the rules and receiving no repercussions, then following the rules yourself is equivalent to choosing to lose.

More specifically, it's the perception of a breakdown that drives this behavior.

When it comes to cheating, there's a growing perception that "everyone else is doing it" and therefore it's not wrong to play the same games as everyone else.

The current political and social media discourse revolves around ideas that "the system is rigged" combined with a die-hard notion that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and/or evil. When people are bombarded with these ideas every day on their social media feeds, cheating a little bit to get yourself ahead doesn't feel like cheating. It just feels like leveling the playing field.

Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by pdonis on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @08:50PM (#27298063)
> When everyone around you is breaking the rules and receiving no repercussions, then following the rules yourself is equivalent to choosing to lose.

Depends on how you define "lose". And also on what you think the "rules" are.

For example: most drivers in the US routinely exceed the posted speed limit on roads. Is that "violating the rules"? In a legal sense, it is, since if a cop catches you he can give you a ticket and you pay a ifne and points go on your driving record. But nobody considers you a bad person for doing it, and I would argue that doing it, if you don't cause an accident, is not harming anyone. However, obeying the speed limit is also not considered a bad thing; all it really means is you get where you're going a bit slower. The tradeoff is yours to make; you don't "lose" by choosing to obey the posted rule.

Now consider an example at the other end of the spectrum: all of the shenanigans with mortgages and the financial system that caused the crash of 2008. Those who "followed the rules" leading up to the crash--for example, those, like my wife and me, who limited our mortgage and the size of house we bought to what we could comfortably afford--did not "lose". Sure, the value of our home went down, but we had no need to sell it then. It was still a house and we could still live in it just fine. Sure, we didn't have a bigger house with more bells and whistles, but we also didn't have to worry about what might happen if the housing market crashed. In other words, we made a tradeoff not much different from the one made by the person who obeys the speed limit and just gets where they're going a bit slower--but still gets there.

Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by rhacker on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @06:48PM (#27297115)
Indeed. I wonder if the internet also has something to do with this feeling. In a way, people are looking for justifications to doing things the wrong/illegal way. And in the past the information you got about how the world works is from other people around you. Now you can look up people in the same boat and apply whatever logic they did.
Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @06:54PM (#27297176)
Engagement-optimizing media definitely are a part of it. That means both social media sites and classical news media. Both feed us a heavily warped view of the world - one in which nothing works, and everyone tries to cheat. That's because people being good, following the rules, helping each other and accomplishing things together is not newsworthy, and stands no chance against outrage-inducing stories.
Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by nyolfen on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @07:38PM (#27297524)
trust emerges in situations with iterated interaction; defecting is most effective in anonymous or discrete situations, since there is less opportunity for punishment.

america has urbanized rapidly in the last half century, at the same time that family formation has broken down and life-long jobs have become a thing of the past. we are atomized and thrust into constant competition. i don't mean to idealize a past that i did not even experience, but there is something to be said for having roots and knowing your neighbors. we arguably have more opportunity at the cost of stable identity -- reputation and trust naturally accrete around the kind of stability we lack.

if you talk to older people, people around my grandparents' age or thereabouts, you will hear that they no longer recognize america, that it is fundamentally different than the culture they grew up in, in terms of values. i find myself thinking about this a lot.

Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by atweiden on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @08:55PM (#27298099)
> there is something to be said for having roots and knowing your neighbors

I think knowing your neighbors is overvalued. My evidence is Tokyo and living in transient, largely ethnically homogenous sharehouses — in ethnically homogenous areas — for long periods of time.

Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by Retric on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @06:42PM (#27297048)
There is a huge short vs long term bias here. Constantly burning everyone around you requires a long line of new suckers. But, within a community trust can have great long term benefits.
Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by briefcomment on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @06:59PM (#27297199)
Probably why we need more and more trustless systems. Hopefully crypto works.
Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by not2b on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @07:04PM (#27297230)
In this case, crypto would mainly serve to hide collusion more effectively.
Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by briefcomment on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @07:25PM (#27297413)
Sure, but in general, decentralization will make it harder to effectively steer institutions and behavior with collusion.
Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by not2b on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @08:49PM (#27298061)
Academic communities are often quite small; back when I was publishing and serving on committees it often wasn't hard to figure out who the reviewers were, because a paper proposing a revolutionary new way to do X would be sent to top world experts on X. In those cases, the fact that you could sometimes figure out who was who limited possible bad behavior, because clearly unfair reviews would damage the reviewer's reputation.
Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by briefcomment on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @09:31PM (#27298340)
Not sure I follow. It sounds like the experts in your example are able to effectively identify fair reviews based on their merit. This would need to be the case for people to pick out unfair reviews (and therefore deter reviewers from writing bad reviews). But it that's the case, anonymity shouldn't incentivize anyone to write bad reviews (since bad reviews would be identifiable and dismissible on their own). If anything, I would think that de-anonymization (implicit in this case, since reviewers are presumably nominally anonymous) would be more likely to empower cult-of-personality effects (or in general, would incentivize looking beyond the merits of a review, to get into an influential person's good books), making bad reviews more influential than they otherwise would be.
Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by Spooky23 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @06:44PM (#27297076)
This has always existed and always will.

In the old days you had to know your place. WASPs smoked cigars and ran things. Those old guys drinking sherry and wearing tweed helped each other out. The Irish were cops, Italians firemen.

In tech it’s pretty obvious to see various constituencies doing dishonest shit help others out.

Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by RGamma on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @07:01PM (#27297218)
Refreshing to see someone on the inside who notices.

From the outside this degradation of values and "social lawlessness" has been apparent for years now, especially since 2016.. Really hope this doesn't spill over.

Oh, and good lucking mending this.

Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by lovich on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @07:47PM (#27297600)
Someone on the inside of what? I don’t think I have a particularly privelaged view or extra knowledge. Rule of law is like poli sci 101 and I can observe the lack of trust just in the general trend of messaging in mainstream media and discussion boards like this
Re:Collusion rings threaten the integrity of computer scienc... by RGamma on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @08:46PM (#27298043)
I interpreted "our society" as "US" and meant inside/outside relative to that. Sorry for the lack of clarity.