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Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by temporalparts on Monday May 24, 2021 @02:56AM (#27261685)
Wow, this is such a simple application of ML and it is incredibly valuable. On their website, they charge $100/month per device or $1000/year per device [0] and I bet they're making a killing.

[0] https://countthings.com/en/

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by rubenbe on Monday May 24, 2021 @05:50AM (#27262569)
Value pricing at it's finest. If the customer saves $1000/month per device, they'll happily pay the $100/month. As it still saves them $900. They don't care how complex/simple the ML implementation is.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by Aperocky on Monday May 24, 2021 @10:32AM (#27264786)
But is there any barrier to entry though?

By the looks of it, none, the next app will charges $5 per month and it could even be generic ('round objects counter')

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by TheAdamAndChe on Monday May 24, 2021 @11:01AM (#27265150)
It may not seem like it to those of us who know how to do it, but there actually is quite a barrier to entry. You or an organization needs to have the skills to utilize machine learning algorithms, test them thoroughly, package it in an easy-to-use application, then market it and compete against competitors. Just ask your every day Joe what you should do with a learning rate if your error rate suddenly spikes or how to monitor for overfitting. Then ask them how to form an LLC or how to create and audit a liability release waiver for clients.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by TchoBeer on Monday May 24, 2021 @01:02PM (#27266848)
I also think part of the "real skill" in this sort of business is making sure you have someone around when it breaks. If the pearl counting algo goes haywire, the pearl company wants to know that they'll have someone to contact to fix it.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by dv_dt on Monday May 24, 2021 @12:02PM (#27265973)
The barrier to entry is that many niche markets that latch on to the original service over time are incredibly random and difficult to associate with a uniform market. You can build and price a cheaper app, but reaching the set of customers would be difficult.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by GhostVII on Monday May 24, 2021 @02:18PM (#27267842)
A business would probably not want to take the risk of switching to an unproven app for just $100 a month in savings.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by toomuchtodo on Monday May 24, 2021 @10:58AM (#27265119)
Until then, profit is profit.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by jjk166 on Monday May 24, 2021 @04:43PM (#27269474)
I imagine it's all in the business development. I for one never would have thought to reach out to pearl traders to service their counting needs, and odds are they're not actively seeking out computer vision expertise.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by dawnerd on Monday May 24, 2021 @04:18AM (#27262111)
Meanwhile industrial manufacturing have been using vision systems for years to count and inspect items. This solution is waaaaay cheaper than what other alternative packages are.

They could probably get away with charging a lot more if they build a lite assembly line style counter that takes in a video feed. (They might already have this, I didn’t look too much into it).

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by keeble on Monday May 24, 2021 @04:22AM (#27262126)
They can also count items from video https://youtu.be/EoCMUfMO2jw
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by Scea91 on Monday May 24, 2021 @05:19AM (#27262422)
The difficulty of this depends on the acceptance criteria. I can imagine that the industrial requirements for FP/FN count make this quite an interesting and complicated problem.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by 29athrowaway on Monday May 24, 2021 @08:25AM (#27263529)
I would not say it's that simple, they do have many trained models with high accuracy.

https://countthings.com/en/counting-templates

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by distribot on Monday May 24, 2021 @05:43AM (#27262531)
I wish I could get a bead on how useful ML is. Hackernews makes me think it’s all hype.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by BiteCode_dev on Monday May 24, 2021 @07:39AM (#27263201)
I don't know about others, but because a lot of IT news comes to me from American medias, I _always_ consider it hype.

The reason is cultural: american can't seem to do without superlatives. They didn't eat good carrots yesterday, there were AMAZING carrots. They don't introduce me to their friends, but to their VERY BEST friends. They are always EXCITED to do X and SO something about Y.

The result is that none of those words have any value anymore. Louis C.K had a very good bit on that.

And then you add agenda, ads, and geek bias toward the new, and you got a recipe for over hype for pretty much everything (NoSQL all the things, Microservice all the things, PWA all the things, SPA all the things, OOP all the things, FP all the things, rust all the things, typescript all the things, etc).

So yes, my default assumption is that stuff on HN are over hyped (although interesting), until proven otherwise.

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by freddie_mercury on Monday May 24, 2021 @09:32AM (#27264127)
I live in Southeast Asia and am in a Facebook group where foreigners often post asking for recommendations.

Americans always phrase their questions as, "What's the BEST pizza?" or "What's the BEST sushi?"

As if they would die (or could even tell the difference) if they had the fourth or tenth best option in the city instead.

And if you recommend a place too expensive or too far away it becomes immediately clear they don't actually want the best.

All they actually want is a decent place to eat at a moderate price level.

But as Americans they can't say that. They have to pretend they deserve nothing but the BEST.

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by WindyLakeReturn on Monday May 24, 2021 @09:42AM (#27264244)
Perhaps it has to do with different interpretations of what is meant by best?

If I told you the best Thai place around where I live, I would tell you a place that is best not just because of its food, but also its price, parking, distance to travel. It is the best in that it is the most optimal given my own value judgment of those factors.

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by matheweis on Monday May 24, 2021 @10:27AM (#27264741)
This is exactly right. Before I lived in Seattle, I was told (moving from the southwest), that there was no good Mexican food in Seattle.

Of course after I moved there I found quite a number of excellent Mexican food restaurants, and for a few years I wondered what strange definition they were using.

I eventually figured out that they meant that there was no good Mexican food within walking distance of downtown

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by vgel on Monday May 24, 2021 @01:10PM (#27266957)
Do you have any recs in North Seattle? Me and my wife live in Lake City and have been looking for a good (need not be the best ;) ) Mexican place.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by matheweis on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @08:47AM (#27276143)
Hello former neighbor. :-) (Lived in Lake City for four years)

Casa Del Mariachi (off 125th) has great breakfast burritos. Haven’t tried the rest of their food, only came across them recently. Should be good though.

Azteca by Northgate is only okay if you don’t want to go far, you could do a lot better.

Plaza Garcia is your classic southwest Mexican food and one of our favorites. It’s in Kirkland but worth the drive.

Acapulco Fresh Mexican Grill in Kenmore is pretty good.

Taqueria El Sabor in Shoreline is also pretty good.

Anita’s Food Truck on Aurora also has good burritos. Wouldn’t classify them as typical southwest fare though.

And if you’re up for driving, the list wouldn’t be complete without mentioning Jumbo Burrito in Oak Harbor. Take the Ferry to Whidbey, do a day trip across Whidbey, stop at Jumbo and try the carnitas before you cross Deception Pass on the way back. You’re welcome.

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by vgel on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @01:23PM (#27358091)
Thanks for the recs! Me and my wife went to Casa del Mariachi the other day and the breakfast burritos were bomb as promised :) Definitely going to try that Whidbey day trip sometime as well!
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by awal2 on Monday May 24, 2021 @04:40PM (#27269448)
El Camion taco truck on Sand Point way is pretty good
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by BiteCode_dev on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:30AM (#27273505)
But unless you list those factors such adjective is meaningless.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by andredz on Monday May 24, 2021 @11:53AM (#27265843)
As seen in this comment in another thread currently in the front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27263606 (Although the person that used 'best' in that story is from the UK).
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by iagovar on Monday May 24, 2021 @08:54AM (#27263748)
But americans do get marketing though. I bet you know about a bunch of companies that were doing $thing in $country before, probably with better outcomes, but never got the recognition.

In Spain, for example, many industrial companies have a culture where marketing is nearly BS. That hurts them a lot IMO.

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by ethbr0 on Monday May 24, 2021 @09:02AM (#27263837)
Both of these are interrelated.

I think one of the reasons Americans overuse superlatives is because they're constantly bathed in expensive marketing.

Consequently, everyone is used to being told everything is good / great / the best. Which means anyone actually expressing that in a human capacity has to reach for "the very best" or similar.

[dead]
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by D-Coder on Monday May 24, 2021 @07:30PM (#27270938)
Selection bias, perhaps? They're not telling you at all about the regular carrots, the okay friends, because why should they waste your time with "It's just the same old same old."
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by BiteCode_dev on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:08AM (#27273315)
Oh they are. Their stuff are regular stuff.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by smichel17 on Monday May 24, 2021 @06:10AM (#27262684)
The main reason I'm trying to cut down on my HN consumption a bit is the incessant pessimism. While a regular reality check is definitely useful, the "I'm so jaded by everything" vibe makes it hard to get excited about anything. I like being excited by things! It feels good and motivates me. Too much HN is a recipe for lethargy.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by rationalData on Monday May 24, 2021 @08:37AM (#27263627)
I think the most important reason to reduce consumption is due to everything being carefully curated.

Actual issues from a particular fruit company like the butterfly keyboard was cause of getting flagged, you weren't allowed to talk about it. Similar problems happen to this day.

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by ethbr0 on Monday May 24, 2021 @09:04AM (#27263862)
Mac fans being rabid Mac apologists isn't something leaving HN is going to change.
[dead]
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by darksaints on Monday May 24, 2021 @12:19PM (#27266202)
I'm as frustrated as you are, but you shouldn't see this as the result of dictators, but rather the result of lots of cult members having access to the flag button.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by ethbr0 on Monday May 24, 2021 @09:14AM (#27263955)
Users flag content on HN for dubious, political reasons all the time. Why would this need to be a conspiracy, rather than simply a vocal minority?
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by bonoboTP on Monday May 24, 2021 @06:28AM (#27262792)
Depends on your baseline excitement. If you're so hyped up that you think it can classify bad and good prospective employees from a single photo, you should tone it down because that's nonsense. If you think it's all fluff, then you are also wrong. There are many great ML applications for constrained scenarios.

But this pearl counting does not require modern ML at all. It can be done with decades old image processing algorithms like Canny edge detection, Hough transform, thresholding, Hu moments etc. How reliably is another question. This kind of stuff is/used to be called "Machine Vision" (related to computer vision, but in hard industry they like to say machine vision).

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by JackFr on Monday May 24, 2021 @08:57AM (#27263772)
There’s also a technique called “weighing”.

It’s a transformation which, by assuming the items are identical, turns quantity from a discrete value to a continuous one with some loss of precision. In many cases measurement times can be reduced my more than 99%.

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by matsemann on Monday May 24, 2021 @09:39AM (#27264216)
Cut the snark. And if you check the link, the assumption that items are identical is far off.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by JackFr on Monday May 24, 2021 @10:15AM (#27264603)
Yeah I know. And the use cases of people on a beach, crowded theater, trees in the woods, etc. don't lend themselves to weighing.

Honestly didn't intend to come off as snarky, just clever and amusing. Tough to convey tone -- risk I take I guess. Oh well.

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by carlmr on Monday May 24, 2021 @12:33PM (#27266406)
I think you're not wrong. Even if the pearls aren't identical, if you weigh enough of them at once the central limit theorem will be on your side.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by TchoBeer on Monday May 24, 2021 @01:12PM (#27266989)
Maybe I misunderstand, but I don't think you meant central limit theorem.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by carlmr on Monday May 24, 2021 @01:20PM (#27267093)
I did indeed. Your pearls might be heterogenous, but they will probably have an average weight that doesn't change much over time. The central limit theorem makes it possible to estimate quite accurately how much you have of a sum quantity including having a somewhat known accuracy of that estimate, since you get a nice normal distribution with known mean and variance.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by ethbr0 on Monday May 24, 2021 @09:11AM (#27263938)
ML needs data engineering like electrical devices need electrical infrastructure (i.e. generators, transmission lines, transformers, last mile lines).

It turns out companies have wildly different maturities and proficiencies with these precursors, in addition to simple company ages. Many from having under-invested in actual (not consulting BS) technology transformation and skilling for decades.

Consequently, ML is ridiculous to consider and doomed to failure for company A. While company B can toss a simple model at their well-architected data systems and get immediate ROI.

This is underappreciated, because VPs and consultants are not typically in the business of saying "Our systems are out of date and have poor hygiene, and we can't do this new thing because of that."

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by omarhaneef on Monday May 24, 2021 @10:26AM (#27264720)
Machine Learning is not a single thing that can be useful or not.

It is more like the scientific method. It depends on the data available, and whether something in the arsenal can create something useful.

Most experiments yield absolutely nothing, and some achieve delightfully counter-intuitive useful results.

The criticism on HN -- perhaps correct(1) -- is not that it is hype but that it is not new. Is statistics great? of course, but its been around for decades, perhaps centuries, so it seems strange to proclaim how it will solve problems now.

(1) ML can be distinguished from statistics if you want to. I am not interested in this particular debate myself.

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by toyg on Monday May 24, 2021 @06:10AM (#27262685)
As usual, there are exaggerations on both sides. ML is genuinely useful for moderately complex problems like this one, and pretty rubbish for a bunch of other stuff it's been shoehorned on. There is no silver bullet, as usual.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by darksaints on Monday May 24, 2021 @12:08PM (#27266048)
Machine learning is extremely useful, used in hundreds of industries for probably a million different things. Most of these uses are not exciting.

The latest trendy forms of machine learning, which are all some form of deep learning neural network, are pushing beyond the boundaries of human capability, but for a fairly narrow set of usecases. Some people get excited cause they can exceed human capabilities for some object recognition type of task, and then end up thinking that SkyNet is around the corner and they rightfully get called out for it.

You should know though that it is rarely the experts that are guilty of overhyping. It's usually VCs, or product managers, or marketers, or regular software engineers that took an intro class on Coursera where they were told exactly how to solve a problem but haven't yet been exposed to how hard it is to generalize.

With deep neural networks in particular, all of the new innovations have come from novel neural connection topologies. Most of the successful new topologies are the result of attempts to model biological function of some sorts, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. With neuron counts technically unbounded, and the topological search space essentially being the factorial of the neuron count, we will never fully explore the capabilities of neural networks, and only an infinitessimally tiny fraction of those would ever be useful in any circumstance. So deep learning is still extremely exciting because the opportunities are so boundless, yet still extremely disappointing because of how hard it is to find anything useful.

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by legulere on Monday May 24, 2021 @12:02PM (#27265962)
Machine learning is a tool for solving certain tasks. Usefulness lies in finding new places to use those techniques. The hype is about predictions that machine learning (or AI in hype-speak) will be able to do things that it is currently not able to.

Right now machine learning seems like a useful tool for certain tasks but not as revolutionary as e.g. the invention of the car.

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by rsynnott on Monday May 24, 2021 @08:24AM (#27263523)
A reasonable summary would probably be "useful in mostly though not always modest ways in many areas, but _severely_ overhyped". It's not nothing, but it's also probably not going to lead to self-driving cars or even fully-accurate voice recognition anytime soon, say.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by typon on Monday May 24, 2021 @10:00AM (#27264440)
Google, the world's most used search engine, uses BERT to power it's queries.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by sneak on Monday May 24, 2021 @05:56AM (#27262605)
Sometimes I feel like the whole ML scene is just stringing me along.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by rationalData on Monday May 24, 2021 @08:34AM (#27263601)
It's literally statistics applied to data.

If your data is good and you can fit it to a model it will work.

The problem is that data is often poor and the idealized models don't fit real world conditions so you can have problems like overfitting.

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by alisonkisk on Monday May 24, 2021 @09:12AM (#27263942)
There's no ML here. This is a decades old software technology being packaged as a phone app.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by alisonkisk on Monday May 24, 2021 @09:11AM (#27263936)
There's no ML here. This is a decades old software technology being packaged as a phone app.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by bserge on Monday May 24, 2021 @12:54PM (#27266719)
The much better cameras help a lot, I guess. I remember scanning QR codes with a 2014 and a 2018 (yeah, already old) flagship phone and being amazed at the distance the latter was able to do it from. At least 3x the distance from the QR code vs the old model, and the autofocus was near instant, too.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by carlmr on Monday May 24, 2021 @12:35PM (#27266425)
I think you meant to say there's no AI here. Since even a linear regression is ML.
[dead]
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by morsanu on Monday May 24, 2021 @07:10AM (#27263035)
I'm working on this from Romania. Everything is ok.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by MichelSr on Monday May 24, 2021 @07:48AM (#27263253)
What's the rate nowadays for devs in Romania? ~ $1k/month?
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by morsanu on Monday May 24, 2021 @08:14AM (#27263446)
It really depends on the city and the type of business. Bucharest wages are higher.

Btw, we are not an outsourcing company. Everything is done in Romania: development, sales, management.

Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by iagovar on Monday May 24, 2021 @08:57AM (#27263782)
Having an US office is due to business needs?
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by morsanu on Monday May 24, 2021 @10:46AM (#27264950)
Our CEO is from the US.
Re:A Japanese company cut 80% of the time needed to manually... by iagovar on Monday May 24, 2021 @04:27PM (#27269306)
So... he went to Romania for setting all up there?