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Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by lawnchair_larry on Thursday May 20, 2021 @01:58PM (#27224659)
Doesn’t matter if it’s on a US exchange. If you’re a US person, and you move bitcoin from one wallet to another without cashing anything out, this is potentially a reportable event now. And if you fail to do so, the public ledger has cryptographic proof of your crime.
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by pwg on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:52PM (#27225470)
The specific language in the 2020 US1040 instructions say otherwise:

"A transaction involving virtual currency does not include the holding of virtual currency in a wallet or account, or the transfer of virtual currency from one wallet or account you own or control to another that you own or control." (2020 1040 instructions, pg. 16)

So as long as you "own or control" both wallets, your described transfer would not be a reportable event under the current tax instructions.

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by cwkoss on Thursday May 20, 2021 @03:34PM (#27225994)
Easy peasy. If you don't want to report a transaction, move from personal wallet to joint wallet. Then recipient moves from joint wallet to personal wallet.

If both parties have shared ownership and control of the joint wallet, I think this would get around the reporting requirement.

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by ska on Thursday May 20, 2021 @04:52PM (#27227076)
> Easy peasy.

All these sort of regulations tend to have language disallowing actions made just to avoid the requirement (see, for example, "structuring")

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by Edman274 on Thursday May 20, 2021 @11:18PM (#27230112)
https://xkcd.com/1494/

"Lifehack - you can just take all the luggage off the conveyor belt at the airport and leave with it. They don't check at the door!"

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by amanaplanacanal on Thursday May 20, 2021 @03:48PM (#27226190)
I doubt any court would agree with you on that.
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by noofen on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:04PM (#27224762)
Here's a solution, though I don't know how the IRS views this:

1) Buy "dirty" ETH through a KYC exchange like Coinbase

2) Send to tornado.cash

3) Wait a few days, remove from tornado.cash

4) You now have "clean" ETH uncorrelated with your identity

5) Use one of the many DeFi non-KYC exchanges to get whatever crypto you want

The blockchain trail would just show that you sent to tornado.cash, and nothing after. This could be an interesting problem for US regulatory pariahs.

Whether tornado.cash survives will determine the future of ETH. Is it a free, global exchange network? Or will it cripple under regulatory pressure? As the US continues to debase its currency (and regulatory institutions), it will not go down without a fight.

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by a4isms on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:33PM (#27225208)
As we speak, the Attorneys for Manhattan and the State of New York are investigating a high net-worth individual for allegedly engaging in clever ways to avoid taxes and other regulations using activities that are legal when engaged by themselves in good faith, but when used in conjunction with each other in bad faith, may be criminal.

The problem with “gaming” any system involving state-level entities is that they always have the power to retroactively look at your behaviour and declare that there is a pattern that amounts to criminal behaviour, even if none of the actions taken in isolation would be considered criminal.

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by noofen on Thursday May 20, 2021 @03:23PM (#27225834)
Give them no behavior to look back on.
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by Zqe on Thursday May 20, 2021 @11:08PM (#27230058)
Losing your monero wallet in a boating accident is also increasingly common these days
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by therein on Saturday May 22, 2021 @02:36PM (#27249121)
Is it all that different than a company claiming they are a victim of a ransomware attack and they paid the ransom?

Oh no, the hackers got our accounting database encrypted. We can't process your thing for 2 weeks and we paid 80M in crypto for ransom. Can we please get a tax write-off for our embezzlement?

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by ISL on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:13PM (#27224913)
I suspect existing anti-money-laundering law will cover this somehow. Outfoxing governments through technical cleverness rarely (but sometimes!) works in perpetuity.

An example: If any future >$10k transaction can be traced back to a wallet that you control (it wouldn't matter how you got the funds, only that you transferred them), then you'd be on the hook.

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by gruez on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:21PM (#27225020)
But why would you want to take (presumably) clean fiat on your coinbase account, exchange it for crypto, launder it, only to transfer back to your coinbase account? I'd presume anyone doing this is going to use the laundered money for illegal stuff, or at least transferring to some sort of offshore jurisdiction for tax evasion purposes. In both cases it won't be tied back to you.
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by ISL on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:57PM (#27225529)
When The Man gets a warrant to monitor your communications, arrests you, takes all of your electronic devices, and then chats with your friends and colleagues, there is a chance that they might uncover your "hidden" wallet.

Or, in the case that The Man gets a copy of the overseas bank's records with your name on it and a long and credible-looking list of transfers from wallets that match the amounts put into the mixer, it is going to look real suspicious.

Investigators are smart people with many tools at their disposal.

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by rafale on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:11PM (#27224882)
Until the very act of using a mixer is considered money laundering. Which is ironic because you started with clean money.
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by weeweww32 on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:07PM (#27224812)
Or just convert to Monero and back
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by Vespasian on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:27PM (#27225123)
Dear weeweww32,

During a routine audit of registered exchanges we discovered that you transferred/received $30k of the crypto token Montero.

Under penalty of perjury provide us with documentation as to the destination/source of this funds within 7 business day.

Failing to do so is a felony under the Crypto act of 2022.

Cheerio

The Government

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by frockington1 on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:39PM (#27225297)
"During a routine audit of registered exchanges". The obvious answer here seems to be "don't use a registered exchange". Might cost a few basis points but nothing to be alarmed about and likely cheaper than taxes.
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by munk-a on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:53PM (#27225481)
I might be missing something, but isn't part of the allure of it all being a blockchain the ledger that will, for ever after show that such and such wallet received 30k on a particular date & time - potentially requiring some stitching that would probably be trivial to do if the actual transfer was broken up into a series of smaller transfers?

And if you're using a shared wallet that obscures internal money movements then the feds can still see any entry/exit point activity - they might just be uncertain about what happened to the money in the middle.

I guess if you created a private coin for your nefarious dealings you could keep it really hidden (maybe one tied as a stable coin to a more major coin) - but only so long as you managed to keep the feds from getting a ledger view of the private coin - which would require limiting the spending power of that coin to only parties you strongly trusted which, again, would strongly devalue the coin.

The real world equivalent might be deciding, as a criminal ring, to use gems as a currency to avoid handling USD directly too often - but those gems become worthless apart from their inherent value as soon as trust collapses.

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by boring_twenties on Thursday May 20, 2021 @04:29PM (#27226773)
With Monero, no one can see the sender, destination or amount of any transaction.
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by Vespasian on Thursday May 20, 2021 @04:36PM (#27226866)
But people can see the car/house/yacht etc you bought with it.

If you want to actually enjoy your wealth you better find a way to legalize your anonymous money and pay taxes on it.

"I dunno...It just appeared in my crypto Wallet" is not convincing

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by gruez on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:13PM (#27224910)
doesn't that require going through a centralized exchange, or at least going through the trouble of organizing an OTC trade?
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by weeweww32 on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:20PM (#27225012)
There are decentralized exchanges like Bisq
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by NicoJuicy on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:31PM (#27225185)
The general term for Tornado.cash is a Bitcoin mixer and it has come and gone through the existence of Bitcoin.

Eg. Monero doesn't leave a trail by default.

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by noofen on Thursday May 20, 2021 @03:22PM (#27225813)
Describing tornado.cash as a Bitcoin mixer is not accurate.

Exchanging BTC/ETH for Monero leaves just as much of a trail as using Tornado.cash, unless you use a decentralized P2P exchange.

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by NicoJuicy on Thursday May 20, 2021 @04:59PM (#27227170)
Oh, from reading the Google seo description i didn't see it was fully on eth and it matched perfectly the description of a Bitcoin/crypto mixer.
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by noofen on Thursday May 20, 2021 @05:12PM (#27227350)
Furthermore, it doesn't "mix" by creating lots of transactions and trying to obfuscate the trail--it completely cuts off the trail.
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by NicoJuicy on Thursday May 20, 2021 @06:19PM (#27228135)
A Bitcoin mixer has no direct link fyi. Which is similar to their seo description.
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by yellowapple on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:27PM (#27225126)
And if I'm moving between two wallets that I control (be it directly via some software/hardware wallet or indirectly via some exchange)? Does it work the same as it would if I was moving that much USD between two bank accounts under my name? What are the tax implications there?

This is arguably a problem I've been far from rich enough to encounter, so it's a genuine question should that someday change :)

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by munk-a on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:43PM (#27225346)
Depending on how the two accounts are linked - yes I believe you still need to report the transfer, however, since it isn't leaving your person (unless it's being transferred between separate representations like a business you wholly own and a personal account) then it isn't subject to taxation.

This reporting primarily exists to make money laundering less efficient by forcing parties that want to keep things out of view of law enforcement to make many relatively small money movements - and 10k is high enough that it doesn't affect normal folks all that often.

Honestly, when it comes to anything involving a bank these transfers are usually automatically reported by the institution.

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by djrogers on Thursday May 20, 2021 @04:53PM (#27227079)
> Depending on how the two accounts are linked - yes I believe you still need to report the transfer

Pedantic note here - "You" don't have to do anything here, your bank will do the reporting.

Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by munk-a on Thursday May 20, 2021 @05:52PM (#27227857)
That is precisely correct and I think it's a good mention. I made it more clear in other comments after people brought up the burden of having to filling out tax forms constantly. You won't often execute transactions that actually qualify you for this level of reporting and in almost all circumstances the financial institution backing the transaction will actually do the reporting (bank or credit card company). If the payment is cash (which is beyond rare for transactions of this scale) it'll still usually only be required for the vendor to report the transaction.
Re:Treasury Calls for Crypto Transfers over $10k to Be Repor... by kasey_junk on Thursday May 20, 2021 @02:48PM (#27225413)
It’s not a tax implication it’s a money laundering one. Your financial firm will fill out a currency transaction report if you transfer 10k or more between accounts. They will also do it if they believe you are structuring transfers to avoid the 10k number. They also may file a suspicious activity report (sar) if they deem your transactions may constitute money laundering or they may deny transactions that would require them to do so.