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Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by caymanjim on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:38PM (#27187427)
The short answer is no. High-resolution imagery comes from low-orbit satellites, which make a complete orbit about every two hours, and image long, narrow strips with each pass, taking days to image the whole planet. There are many of these satellites: commercial, non-military (publicly-accessible) governmental, and governmental (secret), of varying resolutions. These are also supplemented by aerial (plane) imagery.

The net result is that updated-daily imagery exists, but real-time does not. While I'm not privy to the capabilities of the US military, the kind of real-time planet-wide surveillance that movies like Enemy of the State suggest doesn't exist planet-wide.

The highest-resolution images on e.g. Google Maps are from planes, rather than satellites, and aren't imaged anywhere near daily. The only way to have constant, real-time imaging of a fixed location is with a geostationary satellite, which will be so far away (22,000 miles) that the resolution will be low.

Given an unlimited budget, a huge constellation of hundreds or thousands of satellites could come close to real-time planet-wide imaging, but even then, you'd be getting views at different angles as various satellites took images, and you wouldn't ever have a clear directly-overhead view of people walking around.

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by csteubs on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:07PM (#27188474)
I'm the founder of a company working to solve this exact problem. Revisit rate of Planet's 200+ Dove satellites are quite good (multiple/day) but are comparatively low-res compared to their Rapideye satellites, of which there are fewer. There are a slew of others (Maxar is the next biggest name that comes to mind) but the thesis is low earth orbit is getting crowded, satellites are incredibly expensive even with off-the-shelf parts and falling launch costs, and hardware capabilities are locked-in at launch.

We're taking the approach of using "free energy" in the form of 100,000+ daily commercial/freight/general aviation aircraft to crowdsource aerial imagery using mobile phones to start. Passengers who opt-in are rewarded with free in-flight wifi (where equipped), and we use the device to do orthorectification and photogrammetry at the edge before transmitting it back down via satellite internet. I'm glossing over much of the actual process, but this frees up a ton of computing that would otherwise have to be done on the ground. In the event the flight is not internet connected, we cache previous images based on flight path and upload the difference after comparing old vs. new on the device once signal is restored. End result is a massive boost in both temporal and spatial resolution at a dramatically lower cost. Think Google Maps, updated every few minutes.

We're on IG @notasatellite if you're interested in looking at some samples.

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by cornellwright on Monday May 17, 2021 @07:21PM (#27189561)
Does this really work?

1. Cell phones from 30,000 ft are going to produce incredibly low resolution images, especially when taken through the window of an airliner. They're also all going to be oblique.

2. If you use real camera rigs, you're going to have to pay a fortune to outfit enough planes. Given that you don't control where the asset goes, this seems really inefficient.

3. Does the entire US actually get covered by all those flights? While ATC tries to give direct routing a lot more than they used to it still seems like you're going to end up with areas where planes hardly ever fly. I'd be really curious to see for a given swath what revisit rate you could get with what confidence from historical ADS-B data.

Please don't take this negatively. I previously cofounded an aerial imagery company and have designed aerial camera systems for a large aerospace company. I came up with an idea like yours, but wrote it off for the reasons I mentioned. It's really cool to see someone pursuing it. Feel free to reach out if you'd like. My email is cornell at cgw3 dot org.

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by csteubs on Monday May 17, 2021 @10:16PM (#27190629)
I think it does for a few very specific reasons. I'll answer your questions in order:

1. Resolution is a function of altitude, atmospheric conditions, and camera capabilities. At 30,000ft with zoom, we can get results around 10cm/px on an average smartphone (iPhone SE 2). That's still pretty sharp but we can further enhance the image using satellite base maps, upscaling, and other inference techniques. Obliques can be corrected and used to assemble a "full image" when the opposite oblique is captured, but remains useful (to a certain point on the horizon--right now about 15 miles at cruising). There's still a vast amount of information we can obtain at higher altitudes including crop yield data, snow pack, reservoir/lake water levels, forest density, etc.

2. The physical device we're prototyping is about the size of a headphone case--I actually used a Bose QC25 headphone case to cast the model! There are a few potential avenues to deploy physical sensing hardware on flights including revenue sharing with airlines, using passengers to deploy, and other partnerships in the general aviation space. The DoD in particular has expressed interest in a purpose-built device for aerial sensing but for now, mobile device crowdsourcing in the commercial markets is the focus.

3. There are huge spots in and around US airspace where planes cannot (or generally do not) fly. Satellites will remain the key players when optimizing for coverage, but the high-frequency revisit I believe is best obtained using aerial imagery. I always like to tell people that's why we're "Not A Satellite" instead of "Anti-Satellite". There's more than enough room for both, and we see a huge opportunity to increase revisit and provide a complementary offering to satellite imagery.

We've looked at revisit frequency against ADS-B data and about 80% of the US sees at least 2 flights within a mile each day, exponentially more so around cities and developed areas. Many of our customers are interested in monitoring sites within 15 miles of a major international airport, so we're able to obtain high-resolution images using mobile devices because aircraft are typically below ~8,000ft within that radius. LAX for example can see as many as 500 takeoffs and landings each day, and there are hundreds of industrial sites (ports, fulfillment warehouses, other infrastructure) within the approach path.

I genuinely appreciate your questions. We're still early-stage and the discussions I've had on HN alone have vastly improved the quality of our pitch, business plan, and exposed major blind spots. Thanks again for the kind words, and I'll be sure to drop you a line!

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by newman8r on Monday May 17, 2021 @07:02PM (#27189439)
Are you talking about passengers taking photos/video out of windows?
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by csteubs on Monday May 17, 2021 @07:14PM (#27189514)
Correct. It sounds a bit far-out (and it is) but we've proven the feasibility with a testing group of around 300 passengers using a multitude of different phones/altitudes/conditions/routes. GPS works in airplane mode, so we pre-cache target coordinates based on the filed flight plan and alert the passenger to hold the device to the window when overflying the target. The gyroscope is used to provide feedback on phone orientation so we can get as close to nadir as possible, but we're still able to correct for obliques at around 20miles on the horizon using some general inference. Resolution is a function of altitude and device, but upscaling techniques enhance the images even further after they're transmitted.

We've also developed our own sensing device prototype we call "The Box" that's equipped with a much more powerful array of sensors, but the mobile device-sensing approach makes the most sense for a scalable MVP.

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by protomikron on Monday May 17, 2021 @07:42PM (#27189731)
Do you have an example of the final (aerial) imagery result?
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by csteubs on Monday May 17, 2021 @08:39PM (#27190061)
We do, search ’Not A Satellite’ and our social accounts will pop up. Instagram has the most descriptive content/examples.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by fallat on Monday May 17, 2021 @08:09PM (#27189877)
This is the real seller. No response to this is a massive red flag.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by csteubs on Monday May 17, 2021 @08:36PM (#27190041)
Check our Instagram for examples: @notasatellite
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by Nextgrid on Monday May 17, 2021 @10:37PM (#27190714)
What's the user experience of this and what are the incentives for users to do this? How much are they paid?
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by csteubs on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:16AM (#27191196)
UX on the flight contributor side is currently a low-touch app that accepts the user's flight number and prompts for their seat selection (assuming a commercial flight). We load an image correction profile based on whether the seat is fore or aft of the wing in order to correct for the blur caused by engine exhaust, after which we cache the image task coordinates we anticipate they'll be flying over. We provide a code for free in-flight wifi (actually 2--one for each side of the plane) that can be redeemed after completing a simple calibration task while taxiing or shortly after takeoff. The calibration looks at window opacity, occlusions, and considers atmospheric conditions for each leg of the flight.

In order to maximize battery life and prevent user fatigue, we only alert the user to begin recording when they're approaching a task coordinate by referencing the cached coordinate with the current GPS coordinate which is readily available even in Airplane mode. The "workload" for test users so far averages about 5 alerts per flight or 5-10 minutes of "recording", typically shortly after takeoff and prior to landing. We're using Lobe to train an ML model with the image feeds, so we're working on implementing a Captcha-style post-flight survey where a few sample images taken in flight are presented to the user for first-pass labeling. If a user completes this survey, they're rewarded with additional airline miles as a thank you

There are plenty of other opportunities to gamify the recording process and we've been taking cues from apps like Waze and OpenStreetMaps to inform some of these potential reward features. Possibilities include revenue sharing, free flights after reaching milestones, travel gear, etc. I remember flying Spirit years ago and they always had a fun way to reward the unlucky souls in the middle seat by putting a sticker on one of the tray tables. The passenger sitting in the "lucky" middle seat got a free round-trip ticket which I've always thought was really cool, so perks like those are top of mind as well.

Tl;dr - we're intent on keeping the UX transparent, engaging, and unobtrusive for the recorder--point, shoot, disembark--while rewarding them in kind for their time and effort.

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by newman8r on Monday May 17, 2021 @09:51PM (#27190500)
Interesting approach, I can see how that's the easiest path to an MVP.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by panarky on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:58PM (#27187689)
Starlink is seeking approval for tens of thousands of low-earth-orbit satellites. Each one will have high-bandwidth network connections. It doesn't seem intractable to put cameras on each one and stitch their feeds together for imagery that's maximum 30 minutes old for any arbitrary point on the globe.

And the market for near-real-time imagery might be even larger than the market for internet connectivity.

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by redfern314 on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:33PM (#27188091)
This is more or less the business model of Planet [0], which is imaging the whole Earth every day with around 200 satellites. (No affiliation, but I previously worked for a different smallsat company.) It would be possible to get a higher visitation than that with more satellites, but it may not be cost-effective (e.g. someone might be willing to pay $X for a subscription to daily images, but not $(48*X) for half-hour images).

I also doubt you could just slap a camera on Starlink satellites. Even ignoring payload size/weight, power consumption, etc, you're typically fighting 3 different constraints when you decide which way to rotate your satellite (sun exposure for power, antenna direction for high-bandwidth network, payload direction if you have cameras or other directional sensors). They're not going to want to try to deal with that for the first iteration of their fleet.

[0] https://www.planet.com/products/planet-imagery/

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by iamacyborg on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:46PM (#27188243)
I can’t help but be excited by the possibilities of tech like Planet, so many interesting applications for their data.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by ComputerGuru on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:42PM (#27188800)
Excited? Maybe I’m just getting old but it terrifies me.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by klyrs on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:09PM (#27189022)
Agreed, and the terrifying use-cases aren't hypothetical, they're the raison d'etre. There are some good "plowshares" type projects out there, but I'm not sure those ends justify the original and ongoing ones
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by adolph on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:28PM (#27188045)
The next generation of LEO ground imaging satellites will be significantly larger than Starlink units.

Now, with the resolution relaxation from the United States Government that went into effect on February 21, 2015, you have access to an even clearer view of the ground with 30-centimeter resolution commercial satellite imagery.

https://spacenews.com/a-detailed-view-of-the-ground-with-30-...

WorldView-3 is the industry’s first multi-payload, super-spectral, highresolution commercial satellite. Operating at an altitude of 617 km, WorldView-3 provides 31 cm panchromatic resolution, 1.24 m multispectral resolution, 3.7 m short-wave infrared resolution, and 30 m CAVIS resolution. WorldView-3 has an average revisit time of less than one day and is capable of collecting up to 680,000 sq km per day, further enhancing the Maxar collection capacity for more rapid and reliable collection.

https://www.maxar.com/constellation

WorldView-3: Mass: 2800 kg (6200 lbs) Power: 3.1 kW solar array, Altitude: 617 km

Starlink: Mass: v 1.0: 260 kg (573 lb) Power: 6 kW solar array, Altitude: 550 km

https://lilibots.blogspot.com/2020/04/starlink-satellite-dim...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink#Constellation_design_...

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by ddalex on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @02:41AM (#27191856)
There is a huge difference between a comms relay sat (basically a transponder, a battery, and solar panels ) and an imaging satellite , which needs a huge collector mirror that coats O(billions) to polish.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by yabones on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:01PM (#27187737)
There are also surveillance blimps, which I believe would be closest to a real-time feed. Some can apparently stay up for 30 days at a time. These have been tested for domestic intelligence, and radar (rather than optical) systems have been deployed overseas.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/blimplike...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethered_Aerostat_Radar_System

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by berkes on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:53PM (#27187638)
And even with such a budget: geostationary satellites over the poles are not possible[1] and really hard anywhere but over the equator, really.

So that means most of the south and north part of the earth cannot be covered with such a constellation; they would need to be orbiting satellites, which makes "real time" even harder, because it would require an enormously complex choreography to ensure there's at least one satellite covering each square meter, at all times.

[1] https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/71582/is-it-poss...

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by giantrobot on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:06PM (#27187787)
Molniya orbits[0] can provide continuous coverage of the poles if you've got a couple in orbit. The orbit has an extremely high altitude apogee and low altitude perigee. The high altitude apogee gives it a long dwell time (from the perspective of the ground).

It wouldn't be the most practical orbit for narrow FOV imagery but for polar weather, communications, and monitoring for things like over the pole missile launches they're pretty useful.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molniya_orbit

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by Robotbeat on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:35PM (#27188116)
Disagree. The Iridium phone constellation covers the entire planet (which means it has line of sight to the entire planet) and has for about two decades. Starlink will, soon, as well. They’ve already solved the choreography issue you mentioned.

The entire globe has about 500 billion square meters. 24 bit uncompressed imagery is thus 1.5TB per global image. With some modest compression, you could get a video stream of that from the Starlink network, although the current design of Starlink would make it hard to have room for an aperture with better than, say, 3 meter resolution.

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by riffic on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:21PM (#27188613)
are your examples geostationary?
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by TaylorAlexander on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:42PM (#27189286)
Starlink is not geostationary. It is a very high density low altitude system.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by Robotbeat on Monday May 17, 2021 @10:41PM (#27190738)
Correct. And with a wide field of view (45 degrees), they'd allow a real-time view globally.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by munk-a on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:04PM (#27187762)
But, we could always construct a dyson sphere around earth and rely on the rigidity of the structure to provide accurate polar images.

That said, it would be really difficult and quite likely not at all worth it.

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by recursive on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:10PM (#27187844)
> But, we could always ...

That's a very bold claim with no support provided.

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by Sebb767 on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:38PM (#27188155)
Pun aside, this is the more in the realm of "theoretically possible" rather than possible right now. And people don't consider sun-sized Dyson spheres impossible, so a planet-sized one should be a piece of cake.

Though the live imagery would now need night vision cameras, as we blocked out all our light with our camera support. But one has to take the good with the bad ;)

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by munk-a on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:00PM (#27188383)
Hey, you asked me to solve your mouse problem. How was I to know you were allergic to cats!

I think most accepted approaches to constructing a sphere involve first building a series of structural components to form a stable net - as such we could stop the process when we've got just enough structure in place for stability and not so much that we need night vision cameras buuuut... I typed that before buying a bunch of night vision stock so please disregard the first portion of this paragraph - we would absolutely need night vision cameras from every angle.

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by Robotbeat on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:36PM (#27188126)
Should be feasible at very high altitudes where gravity is low.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by recursive on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @03:17PM (#27199642)
On the other hand, I think it should not be feasible. How many kilograms of raw materials would be required? And at what altitude? I don't think there's enough propellant on earth to lift that much stuff.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by jandrese on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:03PM (#27188419)
You aren't taking high res imagery from Geo sats--they are much too far away.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by Macuyiko on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:09PM (#27187829)
Since you know what you're talking about. Say I'm willing to accept the updated-daily or even weekly high-res imagery of the whole planet. Any idea what the cost would boil down to? How many parties are involved?

Just wanting to learn more about this.

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by johnmcelhone on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:46PM (#27188240)
Want medium res (10m), Sentinel-2 imagery is your best bet. Won't cost you a penny. https://apps.sentinel-hub.com/eo-browser/

Looking for higher resolution (3m), the only viable option really is Planet. Even at that, they're pretty iffy with their pricing models and distribution. I think they range around the $2 per square kilometre mark.

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by dragonwriter on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:07PM (#27188468)
for the whole planet, the jump between $0 and around $2/sq.km. is, what, $1 billion/update difference?
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by s0rce on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:24PM (#27187994)
Sentinel imagery is weekly and is quite good. I use it to see snow melting in the mountains when planning hikes.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by CallMeMarc on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:01PM (#27188398)
I'm no expert but there was an Ask HN about new APIs[1] recently. One answer linked to Albedo[2] which seems quite interesting.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27067945 [2] https://www.albedo.space/

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by Robotbeat on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:25PM (#27188007)
There’s a company called PlanetLabs (or just Planet) which aspires to this.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by throwaway894345 on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:33PM (#27188094)
What limits the field of view of these LEO satellites? Why can we not have high resolution images of wider swaths? Is it something like the number of "receptors" on an imaging cell, or would wider angle lenses significantly distort the imagery?
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by Rebelgecko on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:41PM (#27188186)
The curvature of the earth is gonna be a limiting factor for satellites in LEO. IIRC at 500 miles up you can only see (roughly) 1500 miles away. And realistically your range will be less than that because something that far away will be at a very oblique angle, which means more atmosphere in the way and more distortion
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by notJim on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:41PM (#27187478)
Couldn't starlink do something like this theoretically? Seems like it checks several of the boxes.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by therein on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:51PM (#27187603)
Even though it would be neither covert nor cost-effective, couldn't you use a constellation like Iridium and add some auto-compositing capabilities?

The resolution and angles for your point of interest will change but you should be able to keep a near-constant coverage.

Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by 7952 on Monday May 17, 2021 @04:59PM (#27188374)
Obviously different to optical images. But I wonder if this kind of live view would be more possible with SAR at higher orbits. And with enough signal processing may actually be more useful for automated analysis than cloudy images.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by manigandham on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:48PM (#27187571)
A fleet of drones that stay airborne can provide real-time feeds of a regional battlespace for military use. Cheaper, lower latency, higher quality data - but vulnerable to enemy airpower.
Re:Why is the Gaza Strip blurry on Google Maps? by cryptoz on Monday May 17, 2021 @03:56PM (#27187675)
It seems like the answer is actually yes, then? Seems like it would be expensive but that is no issue with this thought experiment. OP didn't require High-res or directly-overhead, some caveats you added which constrain the problem more. But either way, it totally seems possible.

Heck, put up 100,000 satellites and use the same kind of tech Apple/Google/MS use in their 3D views of cities (it, they do take airplane and satellite photos at various angles, and use software to stitch together the separate pieces).

Seems totally possible to meet OP's request given money not being an issue.